Yea!!! I borrow money and then I dont pay it!!! Great!!!
What do PPP loan takers have to do with this conversation though?
Can’t wait to see their response. Oh wait, it will never come because they hadn’t through about that.
I mean, the PPP folks should also pay back their loans? Although I think when those loans were given out it was stated that they had a possibility of becoming discharged. Still, pay back your loans.
I never understand whataboutism because usually the answer is just the same in both situations. I guess folks are just used to arguing with ideologically inconsistent people?
Sure, but something wild like 65% (and I think thats one of the lower figures) of all PPP money went to things other than what it was supposed to be for. They still forgave something like 75% of all of them. Imagine if half of all students used student loans to buy a Lamborghini, then they forgave more than half of all student borrowers. Wildly different rules for Americas ruling class. No big political or media push around the PPP loan forgiveness either which is strange, almost like the student loan forgiveness uproar is media fabrication to protect the SLABS that rich investors hold. Im sure few would be mad about loan forgiveness if all of the loan went to the employees paychecks during covid instead of the employers bankroll.
Is this one of those things where is enough people don to pay, one of the financial systems will be ripped down?
Worth a shot.
Before the concept of “tuition free classes” meant “it costs nothing”, Britain was working with the idea of “anyone can take the class for free, but you have to pay a fee to take the final - and you can’t pass the class without taking the final.” Instead of having students take out loans and then something happens to them such that they can’t pass the class or they get so far behind that they know they will fail the class, they make the decision a week or so before the class is over to take out the loan. With everyone moving to post-videos-auto-graded-homework-online-only, the only real per-student cost is grading the exams anyway.
I took out my student loans to get a teaching degree. I worked full time during school, but tuition at my public university was 10k$/year when I was making $16k. My state has effectively made it illegal to be transgender in a public school, so despite a devastating shortage in my area of expertise, I can no longer work in the career I took the loans out for. My option is now to take out more student loans to pay for a masters degree and hope that I’ll be able to save up enough to move out of state, because I want to do the thing that I love to do and am good at. I will be a debt slave for the rest of my life.
You should look trying to move to a state before taking the loans. Plenty of states need teachers and are willing to pay for you to get your master’s as part of retaining you.
Yeah, when i was in high school in NY, you were allowed to teach as long as you are in a masters program.
What the fuck? What state?
The state that just hired the LibsOfTikTok person to evaluate school materials… and is going after a principal’s license for dressing in drag on the weekends. Imma be vague because my life sucks enough without getting Chaya involved…
Also: “Incel Udent Debt”
I’m refusing to honestly Even with the new saver plan or whatever it’s called you don’t save any money. Yeah the monthly payments go down but you end up paying almost 20k more through interest over a longer time. That’s not saving
You’re going to pay either normally or through wage garnishment. It’s just a matter of where you want your credit sitting at when you start paying.
I mean… right or wrong, FAAFO with banks does not sound fun, I hope they have an exit strategy like to live with someone else as they drop off the grid.:-|
Yeah, much as I’d like to participate, I’m scared into being a scab. Life is hard enough as it is.
Don’t beat yourself up -
that’s the banks job.Like if someone scams you and you follow them to their house, break in and take your money back… you become the assailant at that point - e.g. if someone spots you, maybe not even the owner, and shoots you dead or whatever, then the fact that it’s their house is all that police are going to see and care about.
Movies and TV shows about vigilantes are fun to watch but the reality is that it is quite dangerous. Right or wrong, they have the entire weight of society behind them.
Find a way to resist that does not involve the likelihood of losing everything you have.:-)
What if they’ve built a system where peaceful resistance is encouraged but designed to be ineffective so the only way to resist effectively is to risk everything you have?
Then feel free to do so, bc at that point you know what you are risking, and more importantly what you are fighting for.
The banks won’t really care either way ofc. But you will notice, and at the end of the day that’s what matters.:-) There are worse things to lose than merely your life - like your soul (center of being).
Although… it wasn’t the banks who caused the colleges to scam students into getting loans. And most professors and staff at the colleges resisted the conversion into becoming for-profit - many (those who could) literally quit over it. The ones who caused that though have likely already cashed out and walked away.
But even they weren’t the ones who changed our economy from being one that worked FOR the people into one that used people to build more wealth for the already obscenely wealthy, and in so doing not hiring people with college degrees. As so many documentaries (like Inequality For or All) explain, that was Reagan on behalf of Republicans who broke the backs of the unions, and everything since has only reinforced and strengthened those steps.
In this place where I live, even every act of compassion is a form of resistance
That’s so sad… and yet all the more worthwhile then - dare to be different:-).
I agree. More power to them, but I’m way too risk adverse to personsally stop paying. I genuinely hope they can induce some change. I guess that makes me a scab.
I hope this debt is forgiven someday, but I don’t have enough faith in the powers that be to risk my future on it.
I mentioned to someone else replying at the same time as you did:
Don’t beat yourself up -
that’s the banks job.Like if someone scams you and you follow them to their house, break in and take your money back… you become the assailant at that point - e.g. if someone spots you, maybe not even the owner, and shoots you dead or whatever, then the fact that it’s their house is all that police are going to see and care about.
Movies and TV shows about vigilantes are fun to watch but the reality is that it is quite dangerous. Right or wrong, they have the entire weight of society behind them.
Find a way to resist that does not involve the likelihood of losing everything you have.:-)
Refusing to make payments on a debt that can never be repaid is smart.
That guy wrecking his credit over $1200 is not.
Student loans are rarely $1200
Real talk - How will not paying convince conservatives to be for student debt forgiveness? They’re the ones blocking loan forgiveness, and this is a demographic of people that does lean toward them, so why would they listen?
IMHO, showing up to vote is what would actually put the fear of god into these politicians. Not paying a loan will totally fuck up your ability to rent, get a credit card, get reasonable car insurance, and even get a job. Bad credit is no joke.
Not paying a loan will totally fuck up your ability to rent, get a credit card, get reasonable car insurance, and even get a job.
I don’t agree to credit checks from landlords.
I have reasonable car insurance.
I don’t agree to credit checks from employers.
I do have a credit card and I test it once a month on a small purchase, usually coffee.
Any other dire warnings you wish to inform me about that do not match the real world?
Don’t match the real world? Just because you have been lucky to avoid that stuff doesn’t mean that a LOT of us haven’t experienced that stuff.
Credit checks are common in housing markets with limited supply, all the largest auto insurance companies in the US now do credit checks, and jobs in industries like finance and security often add a credit check during your pre-hire background check.
And god forbid you ever need some serious financial products like another loan. That is off the table.
I get the feeling that dude is in his 20s. Bless his heart.
Must have somehow missed this repeatedly my entire life. Totally a real thing I am sure.
It depends on your age and where you live. You may have gotten into housing, an insurance policy, or your gig before this trend took off.
It’s now a big enough problem that a handful of states have started to draft and pass legislation that bans credit checks for insurance, housing, and employment. So, if you’re in a place like CA or MA, you might not notice that this is fair game in most of America.
That said, a lot of this fuckery is still super common and fair game in most of the US.
Housing: 6 years ago
Car insurance: I think about 3 maybe 2.
Job: 3.5 years ago
Do not live in CA or MA or a state that has rules like that. In fact 11 years ago a landlord did ask me and I said no. She backed down when I said I wasn’t going to bend on the issue. Of all the places in my life this was the only one that asked.
But yeah you continue to worry
It won’t, but I hope most of these people realize the only way it’ll change is consistently going to vote and keeping their family updated on what to vote on.
you voted for the most liberal candidate you had available for presidency already.
Yeah these people are only hurting themselves. The US isn’t hurting for cash and sooner or later those loans you’re avoiding turn into garnishments.
And they’re not eligible for bankruptcy relief either
As far as I know indentured servitude is illegal in this country already, I’m pretty sure that’s reason enough not to pay.
They are conscientious objectors in that sense and I’m cheering them on.
Except, if don’t pay they don’t even need to sue to get a default judgment and garnish your wages.
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-my-student-loan-creditor-garnish-my-wages.html
I checked and there is one change. It’s easier to discharge through bankruptcy (although not simple by any means) under the current administration although without congressional change it’s still an uphill battle there too.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/17/politics/student-loan-debt-bankruptcy/index.html
I am applauding the act of resistence, I don’t think the fact that garnishing wages is a consequence should dissuade those from trying to take a part in resisting. It doesn’t make the debt culture we saddle our children with, for a chance at survival, any less immoral. Any resistence in such a culture is therefore a moral obligation.
strikes* will put the fear of god into politicians
also the benefit of not paying off those loans is they are actually left with a bit more money.
strikes* will put the fear of god into politicians,
Striking of matches, maybe.
Pretty sure this “story” is sponsored by Sallie Mae.
I’d Freddy Mad still around?
If so joke’s on them, they didn’t put the propaganda in the headline so this will just make more people boycott. And if it leads to financial ruin for 1 in 10 borrowers that just costs the taxpayers even more.
I was gonna do this, then my partner badgered me into it saying she wanted to buy a house someday, and my credit being crap would screw that up.
How precious, your partner thinks housing will be affordable some day.
In 30 years they’ll be able to afford a shack in the middle of the Texan wastelands once global warming desolates the place.
Your partner wants to finance a house someday. I know I’m on the losing side of this battle but I really wish people would stop associating BUYING a house with taking out a LOAN from a bank.
It just feels like people are only deceiving themselves by saying “I need good credit to buy a house” when what they really mean is “I need good credit so I can take on a lot of debt and pay out hundreds of thousands of dollars in interest over the next 30 years.”
Eh, I bought a house in 2020 just before the pandemic hit, and by the time I sold it late last year it had appreciated in value enough to completely offset the money I’d put into the mortgage. Essentially I’d lived there for 3.5 years for free.
Yes it sounds like everything worked out great for you. Good job on timing your investment! But this is a perfect example of the type of financialization of the housing market that I’m against. You used leverage to buy an expensive, risky asset and sold it for a profit just a few years later. This doesn’t always work out so well (ask anyone who bought a house in 2007) and I don’t want to put essentially all my savings into a wallstreetbets style gamble just so I can have somewhere to sleep at night.
I certainly don’t think that the housing market is a wallstreetbets style gamble. If you’re getting a loan that you can afford on a house that’s not falling apart, it’ll generally rise in value over time. The only reason my house didn’t appreciate even more in value is because it was a cheap house in a bad neighborhood, and I did nothing to improve it while I was there. My sister’s house doubled in value in a little over twice as long as I had mine, and she already paid off her mortgage in just 10 years, albeit due to near-fanatical saving and planning. Even through 2008 people’s values usually went up if they managed to hold onto the house for a few years - it was a rocky time to be getting into or out of the market, but if you just stayed put, you made it out on top in the end.
I agree that it shouldn’t be necessary to finance a purchase that’s worth several times more than your annual salary, hoping that nothing too bad happens in the meantime before you can cash it out, but it’s still the best investment your average low/middle class person has access to, and it’s a hell of a lot better than spending a comparable amount of money on an apartment that you’ve got nothing to show for in the end.
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Yeah, I paid cash for my house at $60k.
One way or the other, you’re paying every month. Either it’s rent (paying for the landlord’s house, including taxes, insurance and interest), or you’re paying towards your own. The general populous has never really been able to buy a house outright. One way or another you’re mortgaging your time to spread out the time to either pay for a house, or pay for property and building your own.
Yes, people have been going WAY to far into debt, pushing the size and prices of houses to unsustainable levels. Hell my mom grew up just fine with 5ppl (2 parents, 3 kids) in an 800sqft house (plus a tiny finished attic) with 1 bathroom. Nobody really needs 2500-4000sqft houses.
But even if we go back to reasonably sized homes, in no realistic world are mortgages going away.
The best you can hope for is to live as cheaply as possible to save up a large down payment (and emergency fund), and buy only as much house as you really need, for as little interest as you can manage, and then pay it off as quickly as you can.
I’m not saying mortgages should completely go away. I’m sure a mortgage is the right decision for many people’s situations. It’s just the way that people talk about buying a house, a mortgage seems to be assumed. If it wasn’t just assumed then maybe people would put more thought into whether they want to save for a larger down payment (or the full price) or whether they want to pay $750,000 for a $400,000 house.
I don’t know, maybe people see these numbers and think its a great deal. All I see is a bank making a huge amount of money from me that I would rather keep for myself. Also, if people stopped stretching their budget to the absolute limit with financing nonsense (3% down, variable rate loans, rate buydowns), in aggregate there would be less demand for houses at these high prices and sellers would have to start accepting lower offers.
Not very effective when they can just garnish your wages, your taxes, and your social security. I’m fully on the side that believes student loans desperately need reform, and Biden’s forgiveness plan getting shot down has definitely negatively impacted my life, but I’m not dealing with ruined credit and the stress that not paying causes when I know they’ll find a way to get their money unless I basically throw away my career to work cash jobs. That would impact my life way worse in the long run.
Right now borrowers are incentivized to keep low income jobs and avoid settling down (they can’t buy houses anyway) which isn’t exactly excellent from a state perspective.
Not factoring in the borrowers that still have student loans from a decade or two or three ago and can’t just upend their now-established lives by halting payment. They’ll be forced to keep paying and keep that turd floating, not by choice, mind you.
That kind of sounds like when people say that anyone on welfare could be doing better but chooses not to so they can keep their benefits. Of course there will always be people right on the cusp who determine that the little extra money they’d make by working more hours or trying to get a slightly better job won’t make up for what they’d lose (either in benefits or in savings from a lower student loan payment), but anyone who can afford to do significantly better generally tries to do that for a lot of reasons.
Sure but right now you can essentially defer forever under 60k, 60k vs 120k I absolutely agree, but that usually happens in steps and $60k to $70k you might not see a benefit.
borrowers are incentivized to keep low income jobs
I don’t believe this at all.
yeah these people are about to learn all that the hard way.
Can’t say I blame them at this point but the consequences of that are probably going to suck for them.
The consequences already suck. It’s damned if you do damned if you don’t. At least I can keep (some of) my money this way.
Do you though? Don’t they garnish wages over it?
Yeah, there’s going to be a whole lot of upset people when the government inevitably starts garnishing their wages.
Paycheck to paycheck and your payment is more than you spend on groceries. And your loan has doubled in size because of interest. And will continue to grow. Meanwhile your credit is garbage and you can’t get ahead. Bad credit? Crappy car, needs fixes. Higher interest rate. I’m 41 and trying so hard to get ahead of it.
At the very least cap the interest for people. Or how about no interest. You can’t chip away at something that’s growing faster than you can swing at it.
Best we can do is crippling debt in a dystopian shitscape to pay off the degree they lied to you about being able to get a good enough job to raise a family because you got that degree, taking on tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt.
I agree with you here. I’ve always said, if you’re putting in work to get an education, the interest on the loan should be zero. Yes, zero.
Over time it means the lender (read: govt) loses money, so what. The increased tax income for an educated employee more than accounts for that. Even if it didn’t, what’s the downside to an educated workforce for anyone but those in power?
Education should not be a for-profit scheme.
The government has no problem giving away 0% interest loans, often with principal forgiveness, for tens of millions of dollars to fund infrastructure. How is university not a similar investment in the future?
Definitely encourages people to work under the table.
Part of the reason there’s such a push for cashless payment.
Counter argument–having bad credit is also meaningless if you can never afford to purchase something like a house, and you’re ok with purchasing used vehicles and renting from smaller landlords and not property management companies.
Credit is a fucking scam to begin with. It’s insane what companies like Equifax have gotten away with.
It’s a far less bad scam than the previous version of be a white guy that’s friends with the local bank.
No. At least under that shit system your information wasn’t hacked and you didn’t have zombie debt.
Wholeheartedly agree. And then we go around panicking about the authoritarian social credit shit China has. Mfer we’ve have social credit for decades
Respectfully, that is apples to oranges. You are unable to function as a regular person in China with bad social credit. Here you can’t get loans and sometimes your employer sees.
In my state all the lenders came to the legislature several years back and make a big push to try and come up with a new type of credit score that was primarily based on driving history. Apparently, driving history is like a way more accurate predictor of your credit worthiness than your financial history. So I guess my point is that they will scrape data anyway then can get it and use it to judge how much you have to pay to access money.
Takes out loans for school
Expected to pay them back
Shocked Pikachu face
They locked them into those contracts when they were still 17 year old kids. That’s illegal. Except they decided it wasnt. Those kids were told their entire lives that college would open doors to great paying jobs and employers would love to hire college grads over dumb folks with just lousy old high school diplomas. Just sign here kid, and you can get an English degree! Of course, those lenders made sure nobody explained how compounding interest works beforehand. Then they packed all those young people together at the hormonal apex of their sexual torment, with booze and drugs and no supervision, just to see how well they could study Tolstoy. And all it’ll cost them is 150k. But of course there’s the interest to consider.
Why yes, we’re hiring! How does $20 an hour sound? Or perhaps you’d prefer this unpaid internship?
Has worked alongside colleges to artificially increase tuition costs to the benefit of both
Expects people to pay them for 90% of their adult life
Shocked pikachu face when people figure it out and are mad.
Wow you’re telling me tuition has gone up over time? I’m fucking shocked.
When I started college 15 years ago tuition for me was $7,000 per year. When I finished 4 years later, it was $12,000 per year. Things going up is normal. Things costing almost double within a few years is not.
Not to mention the “solution” people commonly throw around that Americans should skip out on college altogether since student loan interest and tuition is so absurdly high. “Just go to trade school!”
Sure, let’s see how well our country fairs in 20 years when we have an extreme shortage of doctors, engineers, researchers, lawyers, teachers, architects, nurses, chemists, pilots, psychologists, economists, social workers, etc.
The people who benefit from the unsastainably high tuition rates we have today will be dead by the time these consequences realize. We shouldn’t sacrifice our way of life so a few greedy inhumans can gorge themselves on more money than they could ever spend.
Civil disobedience by not paying these loans back is far from enough. I say we make heads roll.
I’ll take “moronic takes” for $500, Alex
How? How is taking a loan and then being shocked when you have to pay it back not itself moronic? You made the decision to take the loan and you chose what to study. Don’t like computer science? Neither did I which is why I didn’t study that, but those that did make bank. Study liberal arts and find it hard to find a well paying career? That’s on you, not society. I was never the smoothest crayon in the shed, but even I knew this at 17.
Yeah yeah fuck the banks, I’m with you there, but this was a decision. No one was forced to take the loans. You gamble on your own future. My gamble was to not take the debt and let me tell you, that did NOT pay off in the end. A degree helps you get way better paying jobs (that might not be your underwater basket weaving career you studied for) than not having a degree unless you’re in a union or a well paying trade.
Hot take I’m sure, but this whole thing is one of the more absurd things to have gained traction… Yes I’m fucking bitter. I followed the rules, chose not to take a gamble on debt and I’m suffering for it while watching people get their debts paid off because they don’t feel like paying for their education that does help them whether they accept that or not. Put my resume next to yours, everything identical except education and you’re getting the job not me.
Edit: do I think all education should be free, YES! But this is not that argument. This is “I took a loan and now I don’t want to pay.”
I pay more taxes than you, by a long shot. I’m not bitter about people getting educated and trying to do something they like with the short time we all have on earth.
boo-fucking-hoo I’m getting punished because other people want to be educated for the sake of being learned 😭😭😭
Sheesh, siddown, clown.
What? That literally has nothing to do with this. I don’t care about the taxes, I wish education was free for everyone paid by taxes. This is about people taking loans and then saying “nah fuck that I don’t want to pay.” and then acting indignant that they’d have to. That’s absurd.
Who’s it hurting, the banks? I don’t care.
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I lived that exact experience and chose not to take the debt. I honestly have very little sympathy for this cause. Anyone with a degree can get a job way better paying than someone without a degree (me) so I’m not really sure why your friends chose to take what they did. I’m super fucking bitter to see this gaining traction to be honest.
Why should people who chose to study something specific and then not get that job get to have everything paid for them? Are you saying that no one with a degree can get any kind of job that pays more than $25/hr? I’m not talking about some McDonald’s janitor bs, but some management position, or some kind of office work that requires a degree. It pays way more than the shit work people without a degree are limited to unless you’re in a union/trade.
Source: I’m living it.
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I’m making $31 an hr plus per diem with just a professional cert. I’m not even all that good at what I do. This is no humblebrag. Every college grad should be making more than me. It ain’t right.
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I’m sure they will hurt themselves more than the bank
As the architects of this system intended
