• Nakoichi [they/them]@hexbear.net
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    1 year ago

    What a long strange trip it’s been. I remember back in the weeks leading up to the invasion I was posting about it and asking a Russian comrade and some other folks in the Marx Madness discord about the plausibility of all the fear mongering being drummed up by the west and we were all so sure that it was just bullshit noise like most other scare pieces written by western journalists, and then watching it happen in real time while knowing full well that this would be the inevitable outcome, and in spite of that all, this massive campaign of manufacturing consent to support Ukraine and stifle any attempts at peace talks has been pretty surreal.

    It’s almost an even more blatant example of drumming up nationalist fervor in the imperial core than even what I witnessed during the aftermath of 9/11. Like at least back then there was an actual attack on the US to point to as flimsy justification for war.

        • reddwarf@feddit.nl
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          1 year ago

          So no answer then?

          If people in a country want to secede then it is up to the country and its procedures to do so. They can have a vote (not the invaders variant as that does not count) but you will have no guarantee it will happen though.

          Is this going to be a form of 4chan discussion where you will never answer but keep bouncing new questions as a form of discouragement?

            • reddwarf@feddit.nl
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              1 year ago

              Answered your question clearly. You might not like or understand it but answered it was.

              And I see you have another question. So 4chan style it is for you. For being bad faith poster I will now stop discussing with you as it is painfully obvious what you want to do here.

          • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            If people in a country want to secede then it is up to the country and its procedures to do so.

            Say the occupied Navajo nation (or Hawaii, or Puerto Rico…) wants to formally secede from the U.S. The U.S. says no, and says they can’t even vote on it. What then?

            • reddwarf@feddit.nl
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              1 year ago

              Without specifying a group or situation, they rules and procedures for seceding should be followed. If the process fails to deliver your wanted outcome then you have to abide to the rulings.

              What is not ok is for a foreign body to interfere. Certainly not by invading said country and killing, torturing and whatnot. If secession is successful then that autonomous new country can join whatever other country at their hearts desire. But again, that other country is not to step in and force secession.

              Now what if the plight is of such nature it is not sustainable? The last resort you have is revolution or civil war. Again, not the call of a foreign body to step in and start killing people.

              Invading and starting a war which costs the live of innocent people is not the answer.

              • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                If the process fails to deliver your wanted outcome then you have to abide to the rulings.

                So if all Puerto Ricans unanimously decide to declare independence and the U.S. says “nah,” they’re just supposed to live with that? How is that just? You even acknowledge that’s the path to a revolution or civil war, which we can both agree is a terrible option. What right does any country have to impose its will (through violence, of course) on a unified region that wants to leave?

                Once a region declares independence, why does it have to fight with one arm behind its back? Isn’t it free to seek out allies, as all warring countries have done throughout history?

                Should the American Colonies have declared independence? Should they have sought the help of France to even the odds against their much stronger opponent?

                • reddwarf@feddit.nl
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                  1 year ago

                  Like I said, voting for or wanting a separation does not guarantee you get what you desire.

                  It’s up to a country to determine how and if secession is possible. If the people of the complete country disagree with this separation the it will not happen and should not happen. Are the rest of a country any less of a factor? It is their country after all.

                  Discussing other situations specifically is tricky here. The formation of the US for example is incredibly difficult. Where did it start? The French, British or the colonist who formed the current country?

                  In the case we are discussing we have to deal with country as-is, the Ukraine as a whole. If secession is wanted then this region has to follow the rules and possibilities of Ukraine. iI’m not privy to these tbh.

                  What is not acceptable is invading that country and start killing people. Masquerading an election as valid while invading that country is not an option to consider as fair or legitimate.

      • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        Liberals always try to force leftists to ‘pledge allegiance’ to hyperfocused truisms that they take in isolation and try to make determinative of the entire subject. parenti

        I’ll bite. Yes. Russia invaded. No. Russia did not start a war with Ukraine. They joined an existing war with Ukraine in progress.