Summary
Vietnam’s High People’s Court upheld the death sentence for real estate tycoon Truong My Lan, convicted of embezzlement and bribery in a record $12 billion fraud case.
Lan can avoid execution by returning $9 billion (three-quarters of the stolen funds), potentially reducing her sentence to life imprisonment.
Her crimes caused widespread economic harm, including a bank run and $24 billion in government intervention to stabilize the financial system.
Lan has admitted guilt but prosecutors deemed her actions unprecedentedly damaging. She retains limited legal recourse through retrial procedures.
Mamma, what did you bring me to save me from the gallows pole?
Zeppelin?
Lead Belly and likely someone before him too
These god-damn violent tankies. Vietnam should have just fined her a much smaller amount than the corrupt practices made them, like how the West handles corrupt oligarchs.
Seriously. If she was born in the West, she’d be on the cover of Forbes and taking photos next to celebs.
No… A closer comparison shows that she would be like Sam Bankman-Fried with a 25 year sentence and ordered to repay $11 billion. Although she probably would end up on a cover of Forbes.
Bankman Fried didnt steal just from the people. He stole from other billionaires.
“You didn’t just steal from people, you had to go and steal from people who had a lot of money and THAT crosses a LINE!”
–American justice system
Nice false dichotomy.
It’s sarcasm
🍽
I’m against the death penalty. I have many objections to it. though if the person at hand is a billionaire all but one of my objections disappear.
the one remaining is that I’d rather not have the government have the power to kill its citizens. so I’m willing to accept life sentences and forfeiture of all assets instead. mind that the crime I’m talking about here is being a billionaire.
Cries in American
I’m fundamentally against capital punishment. This could be an acceptable exception though.
Eat the rich!
So not fundamentally, then.
It’s okay, billionaires aren’t real people.
Oooh can we bring this system to the US?
My personal take on the death penalty is a bit more nuanced than most people’s, in that I support it for desk-perpetrators who commit crimes against international humanitarian law (crimes against humanity, starting a war of aggression, …) or dismantle/overthrow democracies. Desk perpetrator here means that the person cannot just participate in physical action but has to be a decision maker using institutional power. This should ideally be handed out by the ICC and no other court.
If I use this model, it tells me that the death penalty here is not justified: I’m not convinced that the bank she led had enough power to qualify as giving her sufficient institutional power to qualify and even if it did, theft and bribery are not crimes against humanity.
But yeah, I’m not going to cry if they go through with it anyways.
This should ideally be handed out by the ICC and no other court.
The main problem with any type of capital punishment is that it relies on an unbiased court system with reaching powers. The ICC has a pretty well established history of really only being able to prosecute criminals from impoverished nations.
If the ICC did execute war criminals, it would be an “international” court that almost exclusively executed people of color.
Obviously I believe that the rome statute needs to be signifiantly extended and the ICC should for starters receive flat out universal jurisdiction: A big reason for why so few western people have been charged at it (though: Netanjahu and Puttler are now on the list!) is that a lot of the stuff that could be charged at it happened between nations that were not members of the ICC, meaning that it lacked jurisdiction. Now obviously all the responsible government-members of the “coalition of the willing” should be charged for the crime of aggression, and it is extremely disappointing that they aren’t, but since then the fact of the matter is that most of the rich states that are members have reasonably functional criminal justice systems and largely refrained from severe enough crimes that they would fall under ICC-jurisdiction.
Also: Even today you can also turn it around and say that it first and foremost gives justice to victims of color. Which is arguably much more important than the skin-color distribution of the genocidal trash that the convict! On that note, it bears mentioning that there is no right to get away with crimes just because others do!
Obviously I believe that the rome statute needs to be signifiantly extended and the ICC should for starters receive flat out universal jurisdiction: A big reason for why so few western people have been charged at it (though: Netanjahu and Puttler are now on the list!) is that a lot of the stuff that could be charged at it happened between nations that were not members of the ICC, meaning that it lacked jurisdiction.
Right, but even when people like netanjahu are charged by the ICC, the wealthy European members states fail to enforce their convictions.
Even today you can also turn it around and say that it first and foremost gives justice to victims of color. Which is arguably much more important than the skin-color distribution of the genocidal trash that the convict!
I think that’s kinda europe patting themselves on the back for “solving” an issue they often caused in the first place. I don’t think putting retired African war criminals on trial is very meaningful when that war criminal was empowered by European colonialism in the first place.
On that note, it bears mentioning that there is no right to get away with crimes just because others do!
Eh… I think that’s highly reductive. If I made the same claims about about the systemic racism in American policing would you be defending the American justice system?
Would you interpret that the American justice system is giving justice to POC when they arrest POC because they are the most victimized segment of our society? That ignores the systemic nature of how the victimization occurred in the first place.
At the end of the day, it’s not really a justice system if certain segments of society are immune from penalties being applied to only the disadvantaged participants. At some point it’s just a tool utilized to negate the competition from practicing the same crimes that others have utilized to achieve their position on the global scale.
Obviously I believe that the rome statute needs to be signifiantly extended and the ICC should for starters receive flat out universal jurisdiction: A big reason for why so few western people have been charged at it (though: Netanjahu and Puttler are now on the list!) is that a lot of the stuff that could be charged at it happened between nations that were not members of the ICC, meaning that it lacked jurisdiction.
Right, but even when people like netanjahu are charged by the ICC, the wealthy European members states fail to enforce their convictions.
That has not happened yet. It may happen, but let’s not accuse them of things they haven’t done yet.
Even today you can also turn it around and say that it first and foremost gives justice to victims of color. Which is arguably much more important than the skin-color distribution of the genocidal trash that the convict!
I think that’s kinda europe patting themselves on the back for “solving” an issue they often caused in the first place. I don’t think putting retired African war criminals on trial is very meaningful when that war criminal was empowered by European colonialism in the first place.
It was still them committing the war crimes. Let’s not pretend that Africans are somehow infantile children who are not responsible for their own actions. And the European involvement in those cases is usually also far more removed than that accussation makes it seem.
On that note, it bears mentioning that there is no right to get away with crimes just because others do!
Eh… I think that’s highly reductive. If I made the same claims about about the systemic racism in American policing would you be defending the American justice system?
The sorry excuse for a justice system that the US has is for many reasons a whole different can of worms. To make it short: The issues with white people getting away with shit more often than black people (and I’m not convinced that that is as much a problem if we are talking about homicides, a handful of very high profile cases not withstanding the general trend) doesn’t mean that the solution is to let black people get away with first degree murder. The issue is that white people can get away with shit, not that black people can’t!
Would you interpret that the American justice system is giving justice to POC when they arrest POC because they are the most victimized segment of our society? That ignores the systemic nature of how the victimization occurred in the first place.
That is a completely different situation. A better analog would be if the federal police investigated murders happening in predominantly black communities more often than murders in predominantly white communities, pointing out that they are more common and that the local police forces seem to put more efforts into it in the later cases, making outside intervention less necessary. And yeah, if that was what was happening, it would indeed not be racist but completely justified.
The problem is that that is not what is happening in the US, but it is kinda what is happening within the countries that ratified the Rome statute.
At the end of the day, it’s not really a justice system if certain segments of society are immune from penalties being applied to only the disadvantaged participants. At some point it’s just a tool utilized to negate the competition from practicing the same crimes that others have utilized to achieve their position on the global scale.
They are not immune though: The justice system is fully prepared to treat them like everyone else, the problem is that sometimes it doesn’t have jurisdiction (when something happens between non-member countries) or where you have to be concerned about whether corrupt cops are willing to let the criminal go despite an arrest warrant.
Yes, a lot of the west can be very hypocritical and the US is often absolutely awful, but it is really important to still look at who is on the other side and not to get blinded by accusations of hypocrisy, which is really just another form of whataboutism that in this case is even more inappropriate than in most others.
That has not happened yet. It may happen, but let’s not accuse them of things they haven’t done yet.
Frances foreign minister has already claimed that he’s immune from prosecution…
It was still them committing the war crimes. Let’s not pretend that Africans are somehow infantile children who are not responsible for their own actions.
Lol, great choice of language there… I would like to point out those are your words, not mine.
Also, weren’t you the one claiming that the “desk” perpetrators should be the ones executed. I guess that sentiment ends conveniently with the warlord and not the people who enable them?
I’m not claiming they don’t hold blame, I’m just saying that the governments whom caused the material conditions for a a warlord to rise to power hold that same responsibility. In a lot of cases these warlords are sponsored by Western nations trying to destabilize governments that politically align against them.
And the European involvement in those cases is usually also far more removed than that accussation makes it seem.
the European involvement in those cases is usually also far more removed than that accussation makes it seem.
Weird, it’s almost like the ICC only prosecutes the crimes of people that oppose western geopolitical agenda. Curious.
The sorry excuse for a justice system that the US has is for many reasons a whole different can of worms.
I beg to differ. It’s a very similar asymmetrical hierarchical structure that allows people in power to enforce rules on people who don’t have power, for engaging in the same crimes as the people in power.
To make it short: The issues with white people getting away with shit more often than black people (and I’m not convinced that that is as much a problem if we are talking about homicides
"Black people were six times more likely to be arrested for homicide in 2020 than white people. " “According to the FBI, 55.9% of homicide offenders were African-American, 41.1% were white, and 3% were of other races.”
Sure…not a big problem.
doesn’t mean that the solution is to let black people get away with first degree murder. The issue is that white people can get away with shit, not that black people can’t!
I never made that claim, I just said that it’s not really a justice system if one race is allowed to do crimes and other races are not.
That is a completely different situation.
Why? Because it’s damaging to your argument?
A better analog would be if the federal police investigated murders happening in predominantly black communities more often than murders in predominantly white communitie
I think a better analog would be that the government came up with a an entire new justice system that only investigated crimes committed by black people… While local police continue ignoring the crimes committed by white people.
The problem is that that is not what is happening in the US, but it is kinda what is happening within the countries that ratified the Rome statute.
White savior moment…
They are not immune though: The justice system is fully prepared to treat them like everyone else, the problem is that sometimes it doesn’t have jurisdiction (when something happens between non-member countries) or where you have to be concerned about whether corrupt cops are willing to let the criminal go despite an arrest warrant.
Lol, sure. I’m sure the foreign minister of France is sticking their necks out for a genocider from Kenya…
Please, name one white person who the ICC has put in jail. Hell, name 1 white person who the ICC has prosecuted before 2020. At the end of the day the ICC is a political body of countries whom have geopolitical agenda, and are willing to turn a blind eye when it suits them.
but it is really important to still look at who is on the other side and not to get blinded by accusations of hypocrisy, which is really just another form of whataboutism that in this case is even more inappropriate than in most others.
My friend, I’m not saying that warlords shouldn’t be prosecuted. I’m just pointing out that the ICC is not a non biased judicial system, at least not to the point where id trust them with the ability to prescribe capital punishment.
Pointing out hypocrisy is not a whataboutism. I never once validated crimes of anyone’s crimes because other crimes occurred that were not policed. My original rebuttal still stands true, the ICC isn’t non biased enough to prescribe death warrants.
Frances foreign minister has already claimed that he’s immune from prosecution…
Which is disgusting, but we will see what happens when it actually happens and in any case the fault of France, not of the ICC.
Also, weren’t you the one claiming that the “desk” perpetrators should be the ones executed. I guess that sentiment ends conveniently with the warlord and not the people who enable them?
What makes you think that? If you want to hear me say that Kissinger should have been sentenced to be burned at the stakes, I have zero reservations to give you that.
In a lot of cases these warlords are sponsored by Western nations trying to destabilize governments that politically align against them.
Please name reasonably recent examples, preferably ones where it is not the US doing it. You can talk about a lot of meddling, but it is really not a common thing of the current west supporting warlords against even remotely legit governments. And the goal is usually very much not destabilization, even if that may be the effect. When we are talking about criminal law, intention matters.
I beg to differ. It’s a very similar asymmetrical hierarchical structure that allows people in power to enforce rules on people who don’t have power, for engaging in the same crimes as the people in power.
And the ICC is kinda doing the opposite. Really not comparable, as I said.
Sure…not a big problem.
Fair, but again: I’m not super interested in the US, because we already know that it is a shithole country.
I never made that claim, I just said that it’s not really a justice system if one race is allowed to do crimes and other races are not.
But that’s the thing:
Lol, sure. I’m sure the foreign minister of France is sticking their necks out for a genocider from Kenya…
Please, name one white person who the ICC has put in jail.
That’s an unfair standard, considering that the ICC has so far sentenced 8 (EIGHT!) people from 2 (TWO) case-groups to prison, both of which concerned civil wars in Africa.
Hell, name 1 white person who the ICC has prosecuted before 2020.
First of all excluding all the white people that they charged since then in three case groups (Georgia, Russia, Israel) is something that you would have justify.
And who should they have prosecuted? Blair obviously (and they did infect investigate it!), but other than that I don’t see many obvious candidates that are very clearly missing over whom the court has jursidiction. The thing is: Since the Iraq-war most European countries neither had large civil wars, nor did they really participate in other wars that were not UN-sanctioned.
The fact of the matter is that they are doing more in Africa simply because Africa has a lot of civil wars that involve a significant amount of particularly illegal forms of warfare such as child-soldiers. So yes, there are more war-crimes in unstable regions.
At the end of the day the ICC is a political body of countries whom have geopolitical agenda, and are willing to turn a blind eye when it suits them.
I guess that is why it went against most of those countries and prosecuted Netanjahu?
Like: It’s actually pretty clear at this point that they are acting increasingly as an independent and neutral instance.
My friend, I’m not saying that warlords shouldn’t be prosecuted. I’m just pointing out that the ICC is not a non biased judicial system, at least not to the point where id trust them with the ability to prescribe capital punishment.
But you can’t argue that based on what other countries are saying whom they are going to extradite. The ICC is independent, that’s the whole point!
Pointing out hypocrisy is not a whataboutism. I never once validated crimes of anyone’s crimes because other crimes occurred that were not policed. My original rebuttal still stands true, the ICC isn’t non biased enough to prescribe death warrants.
Who should then prosecute those crimes that are otherwise not accessible to prosecution? The ICC only gets active if there is no serious attempt at prosecution in the country itself!
in any case the fault of France, not of the ICC.
Like any international body, the ICC is only as legitimate as it’s member states willingness to participate.
What makes you think that?
“Let’s not pretend that Africans are somehow infantile children who are not responsible for their own actions.” Mainly that… But it’s kinda besides the point, as you aren’t responsible for who gets prosecuted by the ICC.
Please name reasonably recent examples, preferably ones where it is not the US doing it.
“NATO powers such as the United Kingdom and the United States support the Saudi Arabian–led intervention in Yemen primarily through arms sales and technical assistance.[396] France had also made recent military sales to Saudi Arabia”
“The tribunal requested a thorough investigation as some of the evidence indicated “possible acts of genocide”.[28] Its panel found Sri Lanka guilty of genocide at its 7–10 December 2013 hearings in Berman, Germany. It also found that the US and UK were guilty of complicity.”
" 2008 report by the Rwandan government-sponsored Mucyo Commission accused the French government of knowing of preparations for the genocide and helping to train Hutu militia members."
“Since the war began, both regional and international powers have been actively involved in the conflict. A number of reports have been made alleging that China, Turkey and the United Arab Emirates were all providing military support for the Ethiopian government via the sale of weaponized drones.”
“October 2023, political analyst Lena Obermaier argued that Germany is complicit in Israel’s war crimes against Gaza.[6”
"On 12 December 2023, Human Rights Watch said that selling weapons to Israel could make the UK complicit in war crimes. "
"In March, OXFAM released a statement detailing its intention, alongside several other NGOs,[p] to sue Denmark to prevent arms sales to Israel, warning that by selling arms Denmark is “complicit in violations of international humanitarian law … and a plausible genocide”.
And the ICC is kinda doing the opposite. Really not comparable, as I said.
Lol, the ICC isn’t run by economically advanced states? They haven’t primarily prosecuted people in poor states?
People in those rich states never participated in war crimes?
That’s an unfair standard, considering that the ICC has so far sentenced 8 (EIGHT!) people from 2 (TWO) case-groups to prison, both of which concerned civil wars in Africa.
And how many POC were prosecuted vs white people?
three case groups (Georgia, Russia, Israel) is something that you would have justify.
Sure, western Europeans historically haven’t viewed serbs as “white”. We already talked about Israel.
Again, how many people have been prosecuted that are white?
The thing is: Since the Iraq-war most European countries neither had large civil wars, nor did they really participate in other wars that were not UN-sanctioned.
Ahh yes, the UN is immune from unethical wars…
The fact of the matter is that they are doing more in Africa simply because Africa has a lot of civil wars
And why exactly does Africa have a lot of civil wars…? Hmmm…maybe the hundreds of years of western colonialism and interventionist actions on the continent might have something to do with it?
I guess that is why it went against most of those countries and prosecuted Netanjahu?
Only to have it’s own member states ignore the court they belong to?
The ICC is independent, that’s the whole point!
So long as they don’t prosecute anyone from the G7… Sure.
Who should then prosecute those crimes that are otherwise not accessible to prosecution? The ICC only gets active if there is no serious attempt at prosecution in the country itself!
Lol, I’ve said this several times. I don’t inherently think the ICC itself is evil or anything, I just don’t think they’re really effective at doing anything unless it fits within the geopolitical will of its wealthiest member states. The problem is systemic in nature, and no matter what anyone in the ICC believes no international body is truly independent.
based
Eat the rich. They are the enemy.
Too much fat…Very harmful and high cholesterolic.
I dont get it. If you kill them you get the money anyway, right?
If it’s hidden or off-shore, probably not.
Ban wealth hoarding.
returning $9 billion (three-quarters of the stolen funds)
You can keep the 3 billion and live?
reducing her sentence to life imprisonment.
but it has to be in jail?
You can keep the 3 billion and live?
No, as another comment pointed out, that isn’t legal. The assets she has from her embezzled money aren’t liquid; she doesn’t have $12 billion literally sitting in a bank account. These have to be sold off for đồng, and especially if she’s forced to quickly sell them off in exchange for her life (somehow another reason why the death penalty is stupid), she’ll likely retrieve substantially less than she could otherwise by being able to wait for better opportunities to sell.
đồng
Teehee
She still deserves to be in jail. $12 billion is no small amount, and there’s still $3 billion gap.
And don’t even think about her keeping that $3 billion. It’s illegal.
ok, so why not just have that be the condition for the removal of the death penalty?
Perhaps it’s a realization that under the circumstances of a forced sale, she couldn’t possibly repay the total. In which case, with death inevitable, could she leave it to a loved one instead? Probably it could be seized but there’d be a legal tangle which repayment would avoid? Just speculation.
All we gotta do is sentence a handful of billionaires to death and watch the behaviour change when they realize they’re not insulated from consequence anymore.
Hold them accountable for all the preventable deaths resulting from them screwing around with the economy. 2008 would have seen a ton of them going to prison for the rest of their life.
Imagine all the outrage from red state conservatives if we attempted this.
Or from blue state liberals because “we’re better than them” or some shit.
Oh who cares, they get outraged when a day ends in y.
It’s not like any of us want life to be made so difficult when we’re billionaires either
Good point, good point.
I’m okay with the outrage.
There wouldn’t be any outrage outside of 100s of the wealthy donors. Liberals would completely be more outraged because of norms and civility. The entire point of “drain the swamp” was that most people hate oligarchs, the point of Republicans is to redirect this off into racist and unproductive channels, where nothing ever comes of this hate for corporate and wealthy overlords.
In most, if not all, of the world billionaires can just murder whomever they can’t buy.
Clearly not Vietnam
Yeah but what they are going to do is make sure they get those protections back. They aren’t going to get better.
Then sentence more of them as necessary. Im all for sweeping changes but we’re not getting them. Convincing America to kill someone seems way more likely to me.
You didn’t hear it from me, but I heard that billionaire skipped the fare on the subway…
Shit, that’s peanuts. Every single billionaire worldwide wakes up every single day, and actively chooses to murder people. I’m not being hyperbolic.
The power and character of a Socialist system.
I don’t support the death penalty, but I won’t be terribly sad if a criminal billionaire gets executed by their own government.
I fully support it for the rich and powerful just because prisons can’t reliably hold them. If they’re not put in the ground, they’ll worm their way out of consequences eventually.
Can I ask what’s the cutoff? How much money/how high of a position qualifies you for the electric chair?
Higher than you’ll ever have to worry about.
I’m not worried lol I’m poor. I’d like a number cause if you’re for death penalty, you should’ve thought long and hard through all the details.
Cause you know. It’s about killing people.
0.01-0.1 % net wealth to the nations GDP seems a good cutoff imo. For the US that would be 2.9-29 billion. For Vietnam that would be 47 million - 470 million.
About tree-fiddy
