1. never signed up for anything like this,
  2. never donated to or signed up for emails from the DNC, et al.,
  3. political texts like this come all the time, and
  4. I hesitate to reply “stop” because I don’t want them to know this is a live number (is my instinct here outdated/inapplicable?)
  • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    It’s not purely a social construct, I hate this stupid idea. It’s a phenotype. Babies do not have a randomized skin color at birth, it depends on their ancestry. Calling that a “social construct” is arguably racist in itself.

    • CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org
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      4 months ago

      Skin colour is a complete continuum, and one which doesn’t very in any uniform way based on geography, aside from the darkest people coming recently from Africa.

      By this logic, ear size is a race.

      • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Yes! You’re getting it. Ear size is an aspect of race. As is hair texture and height and all the other inheritable phenotypes. Skin color is just the most visibly obvious one.

        • CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org
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          4 months ago

          Well, words can mean whatever you want, but usually race refers to the discrete-ish social categories that have been constructed based roughly on specific phenotypes. For example Black people were a discrete legal category for most of America’s history, and were nominally 3/5 of a person and treated as much less. Now, they have equal legal rights on paper, but the category remains informally.

          • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            That’s an academic ivory tower definition that they invented and no one else uses. Even the blatant racists who sorted races into these social categories did so based on physical appearance. You didn’t see any dark skin people allowed to use facilities that said “whites only”.

            It’s based on physical appearance, which is based on phenotype.

            • CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org
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              4 months ago

              That’s what I said!

              but usually race refers to the discrete-ish social categories that have been constructed based roughly on specific phenotypes.

              • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                For example Black people were a discrete legal category

                THAT is not a race. That is treatment of a race. That is 100% a social construct.

                Race itself is a real biological thing that exists. Not a pure social construct.

                Stop conflating them.

                • CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org
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                  4 months ago

                  I really don’t think most people use this definition. Like, would you say “what race are you” is a grammatically incorrect question, then? And what about “hispanic” as a racial descriptor? How do you be hispanic-er than someone else?

                  • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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                    4 months ago

                    Like, would you say “what race are you” is a grammatically incorrect question, then?

                    No? That question is totally in line with the definition of race I gave.

                    The census says “hispanic” is an ethnicity rather than a race. I disagree; I think that’s splitting hairs.

                    How do you be hispanic-er than someone else?

                    I’m 1/4 Hispanic. My mom was half Hispanic (Mexican mother, European father…not saying the country = race before you get your panties in a twist, it’s just a fucking shorthand, everyone knows that most Mexicans are Hispanic and most Europeans are not). My mom is more Hispanic than me. Fairly simple concept.

        • barsoap@lemm.ee
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          4 months ago

          So you’re saying race == phenotype? Then you also have to say that race is a continuum, and, therefore, any arbitrary line on that continuum a social construct.

          Which is btw blindingly obvious to Europeans, Harris is white in my book: There’s plenty of Italians with darker skin. Funny how perception changes if you actually consider skin colour to be skin colour and not some grand overarching signifier for an in reality culturally defined group.

          • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            Then you also have to say that race is a continuum, and, therefore, any arbitrary line on that continuum a social construct.

            Well by that definition fucking everything is a social construct. Which, sure, there’s a decent philosophical argument that even reality is a social construct, but it makes it impossible to discuss anything if you get hung up on that.

            I’ve got a secret to let you in on: aside from mathematics and some physics, literally everything is categorized based on arbitrary lines on a continuum. Taxonomic classification. Whether an object is a planet or not. “Ocean” vs “sea”. Macro vs micro economics. Every single thing that is classified, a person or group of persons had to make a decision and in some cases that decision was not very clear or easy.

            That doesn’t mean it’s a pure social construct, and it definitely doesn’t mean the categories are invalid. It means they’re blurry at the boundaries, like all things are. It means they’re part of a continuum, like all things are. It does NOT mean or imply that the categories are invalid.

            • barsoap@lemm.ee
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              4 months ago

              Well by that definition fucking everything is a social construct.

              Nope. That humans generally have five fingers is not a social construct, it’s an (emergent) property of our genome.

              Whether Harris is sorted into “white” or “black” OTOH is based on a social construct: The US’s conception of race is not based on physical traits but social realities. It harkens back to the one drop rule which is complete BS when it comes to biology, what matters in her being sorted into “black” is not her phenotype (quite light skin, temperate climate nose, …), but that a portion, at least a drop, of her ancestry comes from black slaves. That’s a social context, not a biological one.

              Even more obvious is Obama, actually: He’s not a descendant of slaves. So it’s not even heritage which dictates whether you’re black in the US, but whether your phenotype looks like you possibly could be.

              Let me end with Epictetus:

              These reasonings are unconnected: “I am richer than you, therefore I am better”; “I am more eloquent than you, therefore I am better.” The connection is rather this: “I am richer than you, therefore my property is greater than yours;” “I am more eloquent than you, therefore my style is better than yours.” But you, after all, are neither property nor style.

              • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                The US’s conception of race is not based on physical traits but social realities.

                This is the fucking bullshit that makes me want to bitch slap all you academic morons who keep insisting that race is a social construct. It’s so goddamn fucking annoying. YOU JUST FUCKING ASSERT THIS. FUCKING A PRIORI. And then you use that bullshit assertion to build the world’s biggest fucking straw man.

                It’s so goddamn stupid and also so smug at the same time, which is a rage-inducing combination coming from anyone. But especially from Kaeieghlyyn who somehow spent 4 years in college studying racial inequality without ever stepping foot in a ghetto.

                No one ever gave a shit about the “one drop law”, not even in the racist South where it existed, unless someone needed an excuse to exercise power over someone else. If you pass as white you are, for all intents and purposes, white.

                How does one get to the situation where they pass as white?

                Their parents could pass as white! At least one of them. It’s an inherited characteristic, which is what race is. That’s it, that’s the whole thing. Race is a bundle of inherited physical characteristics sorted by commonalities.

                That humans generally have five fingers is not a social construct, it’s an (emergent) property of our genome.

                But some humans have different numbers of fingers! Some have four, some have six! Some humans are born without hands! Therefore your entire system of categorization is invalid! You cannot classify things in any way, because exceptions might exist! Literally everything is a social construct!!!

                Or, you know. Alternatively. Categorizations are valid despite the fact that exceptions exist.

                Don’t “end with” a fucking quote from a fucking philosopher. It’s the bitch icing on a giant cake of smugness. I’m happy to debate this with you but for the love of christ at least pretend to be fucking humble. Also your quote is stupid, because it’s referring to the type of straw in your straw man. You’re trying to explain some shit that doesn’t matter, because your entire premise is wrong.

                • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                  4 months ago

                  YOU JUST FUCKING ASSERT THIS. FUCKING A PRIORI.

                  No. Case in point: I mentioned how Harris has lighter skin than many a Sicilian, and also very much has a temperate climate nose. These are not, in the slightest, phenotype traits typical of sub-saharan Africa mostly Nigeria thereabouts where most of the slaves trafficked during the Atlantic slave trade where from.

                  If you can’t see that then I suggest you visit an optometrist.

                  If you pass as white you are, for all intents and purposes, white.

                  Then why is Harris considered black? What does “passing” mean, here? Does it really have anything to do with phenotype, or is it cultural?

                  But some humans have different numbers of fingers! Some have four,

                  That’s a misexpression, the genome codes for five. And even then: Having six fingers is a physical, objective, trait. Harris being black isn’t, phenotypically she could just as well be Italian.

                  • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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                    4 months ago

                    As I have said, picking individual outliers does not invalidate a category. I think you’ve got it backwards. We interpret racial characteristics through a social lense. But the characteristics do, themselves, exist. And they are easily grouped (not exclusively, but generally) into the categories we call “race”. And we’re not randomly picking traits. They’re inherited via a common ancestry. As you said, physical, observable traits.

                    Could Harris pass as Sicilian? Probably not, but even if she could, she doesn’t have any Sicilian ancestry to my knowledge, so it would be inaccurate to call her Sicilian. Or Indian or Korean or whatever. She could call herself Nordic and we would laugh at her.