I’m an ex incel myself, but I’ve been seeing a few users here exhibiting the tell tale signs. “I’m not attractive enough”, “I don’t socialize correctly”, “I’ll never find a woman” - all extremely unhealthy attitudes.
Personally I burned through many friendships and ruined a lot of chances with women because I was in the incel community. The community warped my view of women so much that I made it even harder to meet women, I became my own worst enemy. I lost friends because all I could think of was how horrible it was that they had girlfriends.
I have a friend who helped me out of it. She was the one who started calling out my bad behavior for what it was, and I started on the long uphill path out of it. I’m now married and stable for well over a decade, but I still think back to those days, and it depresses me seeing other people causing this themselves and not being aware of it.
So, Lemmy, for those who have clawed out of it, what’s your story?
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I had two sisters and I was the only brother. If there is any way to tell you that you don’t have any right, it’s that. Trust me. They know more and they will fuck you up if you even try it.
People have their own choices. Seeing it as a quest in a video game isn’t a reality. It’s a shared experience and they need to share it with you. If they don’t, then it ain’t right.
We didn’t have the term incel when I was a young adult, but at 25 I had an experience that allowed me to realize I wasn’t too far off from my peers, and decided to brute force my way to learning to socialize. My therapist suggested hunting down the local recovery community (which meant going to AA groups even though I wasn’t an alcoholic) which got me to CoDependents Anonymous.
As a note CoDA and SLAA (Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous) are full of people glad to fall off the wagon, which is a major plot point in Choke by Chuck Palahniuk. Before I got too involved, a very nice person yanked me from CoDA into the local kink community, who were the advanced class of consent, limits and boundaries training. This isn’t to say they’re perfect at it, but they get more into the nitty, especially those who engage in edge play. (Not to be confused with knife play, though there’s some intersection.)
That said, I became sexually active at 26, which is pretty late in the game, but a far leap from world records. Sir Isaac Newton died sexless and was obnoxious and proud of the fact. Incels often have nothing on the mathematics sector.
< rant >
The current state of how we regard our teens remains an issue to me, and at one point while Microsoft was fantasizing on how to get Cortana to fend off unwanted advances (Google’s LLM would just ignore them and turn a come-on into a web-search), I was thinking of how a simulated girlfriend might teach incels how to engage others without scaring them off through trial and error and sheer practice. But now we have scary data-stealing e-girlfriends that prey on the lonely.
Then with the rise of abstinence-only education, the alt-right and the eagerness of the Republican party to keep their War Boys ( witness me! ) as a voting bloc and recruitment pool for their militant wing, I realized US society doesn’t have a strong interest in making things better for our newly-sex-starved teens since, as George Orwell observed, sexual frustration + three minutes of hate turns into a powerful tool for fascism-style civil wrangling, at least of the lumpinproletariat (the people who can’t civics very well). Kids developing a healthy sexuality doesn’t serve to turn the population into devout workers / soldiers glad to serve the ownership class.
It also may be that we just don’t like our own teens, and want to evict them (which might be a hunter-gatherer means to stir the gene pool. Gorillas do a similar thing) and the thinking ape actually sucks a thinking past some of our presupposed values like dominance hierarchy. Hence we worship athletes and fear smart, less physical guys will turn into supervillains, and this informs our incapacity to do anything about schoolyard bullying, or workplace bullying, or gunboat diplomacy.
So, when it comes to my fellow incels, I’ll borrow from Red Dragon (The Harris novel and two movies)
I couldn’t help feeling sorry for him. He wasn’t born a monster; he was made one through years of abuse.
< /rant >
I don’t think any incel would comment here since they might not know that they are incel.
I’m an incel. I can tell you how I clawed to became one.
Go on
I’ve been living without having any kind of communication with women (except for my mother and sister) for 6 years, because I was in a boy’s school. That completely changed my view of women, in a bad way. Now I can’t talk with them because I’m afraid they’re gonna curse me, or feed bad because of me. I look bad, smells bad and can’t make someone happy.
And I hate couples. I somehow feel really bad seeing them, but I’m sure I’m not jealous. They’re kinda scary instead.
I’m on a different level, I didn’t know the term incel, I had to look it up. Whether I am (an?) incel is debatable but this thread definitely goes straight to mt collection. This is the type of content that makes me love Lemmy.
Taking martial arts classes (specifically, Brazilian jiu jitsu). Coincidentally i met my current girlfriend there, but you shouldn’t expect to meet women there. Rather, it’s a way to stop thinking about women for two hours. I realized that back then my mind was constantly thinking non-stop if i’m attractive to women, what women like, how i can get one, etc. It’s those thought loops that make interaction so painful.
Literally anything that can get your mind off of women. Hot take; I wouldn’t advise going to a gym though, because still then you’re thinking about how to become more attractive by becoming fit. The goal is to work out to take your mind off things. Martial arts is perfect for this: you can work out, and your mind is focused on your opponent.
Yo, just want to say: good on you and good advice. I think you nail the problem with the constant thoughts thing, and that also explains why so many people will talk about how they met someone after they “stopped looking”.
The bird will never land on your ship if you constantly stand guard to catch it; instead improve your ship and sail into warmer waters, the bird will land while you are not looking.
-cgp grey
I am not a current or ex incel—I came from the front page out of curiosity—but I feel the need to weigh in on this.
I have a black belt in a mixed martial art, I’ve been active in it for many years as a student and as a teacher, and I strongly feel that martial arts can offer a positive improvement to just about every person.
I joined martial arts because I was severely depressed going through a divorce and custody battle; I was going from work to the bar and then home. My life felt meaningless and I very literally woke up one day and realized that if I didn’t change something I was going to kill myself. I joined a local dojo that day.
Martial arts is special. It certainly gives you a place to vent out some frustrations in a safe, productive way… but if you find yourself a good dojo it can be so much more.
Martial arts boosted my confidence massively; it made me feel better about myself and who I am by giving me regular positive interactions with many other people. Belts are earned from hard work, and the experience of being handed that next rank provides a measurable improvement to guide you.
Eventually you start to be the upper belt and get to guide newer people through the same benefits you’ve seen, which feels great. If you go as far as me you may get to stand in front of the class as an expert and feel the healthy respect of a group of people, earned through dedication and the relationships you have formed with them.
Martial arts made me a better person, and better man, a better father, and helped me live a more well rounded and happy life.
Normally I end this little rant there, but if you are an incel and you are looking to get out I will add one more benefit: women go to class too, and if you want positive role model women to help break you out of a cycle of negativity I can think of no better example than an upper-belt woman who you can interact with in a structured environment. Most people in a dojo are pretty chill and happy to help, they also tend to have high confidence in the upper ranks and aren’t looking to prove anything anymore. It’s a pretty fantastic way to form new friendships that will challenge everything the incel community has convinced you is true.
Not a martial artist here, but I would think the fact that everyone is in a basic uniform in many martial arts also makes it less intimidating for someone with body image issues who feels them especially strongly in front of women. No one is dressed attractively or provocatively in the sort of outfits people wear when doing martial arts. They’re not designed to look sexy. They’re a pretty good gender equalizer in terms of appearance.
I’ve never been an incel but I’ve always sympathised because I feel like I easily could have become one. Seeing a therapist and learning the basics of Cognitive Bias Therapy is what I attribute to helping me out of a lot of those ‘thought loops’.
It’s nice hearing stories about people who’ve escaped it.
You should strength your muscles before doing martial arts anyway
You do not need to pre train to join a martial arts gym as a rookie/white belt
Why did my muscle get hurt then?
What’s wrong with your muscles hurting?
Or do you.mean an actual injury…
When I trained TKD I would still get DOMS from intense training, even as a black belt. Obviously faster recovery than when I was a rookie, but muscles “hurting” is ok
Yes sorry it was an actual injury/lesion on the muscles
Your muscles can get hurt working out too, you just gotta learn to preform in your own capabilities, or you were hurt by an asshole.
Probably went too hard too soon, and you didn’t have time to get used to the activity- it takes months for your body to get significantly stronger. I tore my bicep tendon, I believe I just wasn’t ready for the level of exertion. Similarly I would recommend warming up each session and starting with low effort / low exertion movements.
Any introverts here? or ex introverts that would like to do an AMA come on over to https://lemmy.world/c/amarequests
I don’t know if this counts since I was never the women hating type, but for a long time I suffered because I couldn’t figure out a way to have a girlfriend.
How I dealt with it? Understanding myself, mechanisms of social pressure, and the wrong motives I had for wanting to have a girlfriend.
It was always about proving something to others, rather than actually finding a life partner. Everyone around me constantly pestered me to find a gf, friends, family … All the media celebrates certain kinds of romantic relationships. I thought I’m worthless if I don’t do it as well.
Changing that mindset transformed me - I don’t have to put myself in situations I’m uncomfortable with, and I don’t have to pursue types of relationships defined by others.
I was never full-on incel, but I was definitely headed down that path. I was a late-20’s fat guy with severe acne all over my upper body, and I’d obviously never had a girlfriend. I looked ahead in life and just saw it going further and further downhill. I tried dieting, working out, etc, but none of my attempts at making a change ever lasted.
One day I saw a facebook post that one of my old highschool classmates had gotten married. The guy looked a lot like me, and at first I was mad - I had that classic incel thought of “why is he successful and not me?” But after sitting in that dark place for awhile, I realized that the answer to that question is that I can be successful! I realized that I’d never tried to put myself out there because I always viewed myself as not being worthy - I needed to be fitter, more attractive, better at talking to people, etc - but did I really? I wanted to find out, so I made an online dating account, cleaned myself up, got a friend to take some nice pictures of me doing things I enjoyed, and put myself out there.
I made a goal for myself to never start a conversation with “Hey” or something similar - I went through every profile I found and picked something specific to talk about. It took a while, and I missed a lot of opportunities by being awkward, but eventually I got good enough at holding a conversation to secure a few dates, and in only a few months of that, I found the woman who is now my wife!
I’m still fat, but having someone to look good for was at least enough for me to shower more regularly, which cleared up a lot of my acne. I’m still pretty awkward, but so is my wife, and we both find it endearing. Life’s not perfect - there are still issues - but I’m no longer looking ahead at my life and seeing only downhill trajectory; I have a sense of optimism I didn’t have before, and it mostly came from me accepting myself. I’m not sure if other incels are the same as I was - not realizing that the one they actually hate is themselves - but I hope that if they are, they eventually come to the same realization that I did: that they are worthy.
I made a goal for myself to never start a conversation with “Hey” or something similar - I went through every profile I found and picked something specific to talk about.
This is a good strategy. It’s surprising how many people (of all genders) match on dating apps and think “hey” is a strong opener.
Also surprising is how many people think a longer message they send to every match (eg: “what do you think defines art?”) is a good move.
Asking people about their profile stuff is the way to go. People like talking about themselves. People are (hopefully) putting things on their profile their way to talk about.
This is a great story. I’m so happy for you and your wife!
In my very limited experience, the one characteristic that seems pretty universal to incels is the inability to have casual, no pressure small talk with anyone, especially with those of the opposite gender (or whatever gender you like).
Small talk is a skill like anything else. It must be practiced and honed. The easiest way to do this is just by being interested in what the person is saying. You don’t have to be funny or quippy. Just be curious about their life and you’ll find that most of small talk is just being able to go back and forth about a topic.
Small talk is a skill like anything else. It must be practiced and honed. The easiest way to do this is just by being interested in what the person is saying. You don’t have to be funny or quippy. Just be curious about their life and you’ll find that most of small talk is just being able to go back and forth about a topic.
Key here is that anyone can do small talk. You have to have ZERO knowledge about the subject matter. You can just ask questions. Anyone interested in a topic will usually be happy to answer them. This works on anything from sports to cooking to blacksmithing topics. The wonderful thing you find out is: PEOPLE ARE INTERESTING!
Admit your ignorance on the subject and have them walk through explanations. Engage in the conversation by connecting it to any tangential knowledge you have on the subject.
“Ocean kayaking? I’ve never done that. That sounds exhilarating. The closest thing I’ve ever done to that was a canoe on a river when I was 12. I’m sure its different but how different is it?”
“How did you get into that hobby?”
“Where in the world have you done it?”
“Any close calls?”
“How important is the right gear/boat?”
“Where would you like to do that in the future?”
See? Zero knowledge about ocean kayaking, but infinite conversation that the other person is engaged with you in. Congratulations you’re small talking!
Key here is that anyone can do small talk. You have to have ZERO knowledge about the subject matter. You can just ask questions. Anyone interested in a topic will usually be happy to answer them
Fucking hell. I needed that. I’ve somehow never put that all together by this point
The tips here for small conversation here are spot on. Most people want to talk about themselves and stuff they enjoy, I know I do (but I’m also aware not everything I want to say is what people want to listen to, I love history but it’s rare for me to find “openings” to share some of it and people often try to change topics soon after). Give them a bit of room and, if it’s something you really want to know more about, ask further.
The best advice I’ve heard along those lines is: “It’s more important to be interested than interesting”
Ironically, I reckon the more interested you are in people and things, the more interesting you become, because you learn and gain a more diverse understanding of the world, and then you are able to interact with more depth with more people.
It is also okay not to be good a “small talk”. I quite frankly hate it and for the most part i tend to overwhelm people in conversations. Now i am happily married and we still sometimes end up just talking all night, because we engage in conversations we both find meaningful.
Weirdly enough and quite annoyingly now that i am married and built some confidence, a lot of women are hitting on me, and seemingly unfazed by me stating the fact that i am married. Had to cut out a few people from my life because of that.
It seems like incels, or at least Tate-holes, treat every conversation as a challenge with the reward being sex.
Just be friends with people. Who fucking cares if you end up in a romantic relationship, allow yourself to form close intimate friendships that aren’t physical.
What if you don’t want to be friends with people though?
Any sexual relationship will rely on a foundation of some amount of friendship. A human connection, if you will. There’s a reason the terms are “fuckbuddy” and “friends with benefits” and not just “sex toy”
If you want a sex toy just go buy a sex toy from the shop
What about hookups though? I’d say there isn’t much human connection there, and certainly not friendship.
Realistically, in order to hook up you need the social skills that come from forming and maintaining human connections in order to not immediately make your perspective partner run for the hills the moment you open your mouth. Sure one might be able to get lucky in spite of a lack of any social experience, but that’s about as likely as winning it big in lottery
I thought you meant friendship with the sexual partner, not as a skill / attitude with anyone. Nevermind then
My father and mother weren’t friends.
Mine weren’t either. Unbearably miserable for everyone until they got divorced, then it was just regular miserable. Would not recommend.
A good relationship is founded on friendship in one way or another.
Can’t tell if trolling, quipping, or honestly asking…
I feel like some people who don’t want friends are often people with low self esteem who have decided their hypothetical future friends will abandon them, or not like them, or whatever, and so they convince themselves that they “don’t want that anyway” as a way of protecting themselves from future pain or embarrassment. In those cases, dating aside, the person should work on their self esteem.
If it’s not that, one could try casual hookup apps. These rely on a certain amount of work, and there’s no guarantee, especially if one lives in a less populated area, but it’s possible.
And the third option for someone who doesn’t want anything social and just wants sex, is sex work. This is exactly what it can be for! The only trouble is that in most places it’s illegal, which pushes it underground, making it both difficult to find and potentially dangerous… but this is the niche it’s meant to occupy.
But honestly… at least consider that it may be the first case, and see if you can search your feelings to figure out “why”.
Awesome! I scored 6 conversation points, I can redeem my punch card for sex now!
Oh you didn’t hear about the pricing update… Sex costs 15 now, but you can redeem 6 for a hug if you ask nicely.
Perfect way to put it - this is how I’ve felt about Tate, etc, but couldn’t describe it. This is so spot on.
Just another thing. Working out, not to look good but to build some muscle (whether it’s seen or not), makes a great improvement in the bedroom!
Honestly… Two years in prison. Made me grow up and see how shitty I was as a person.
Mind if I ask you more? What was the nature of crime? How do you feel it changed you? It’s very rare nowadays to see stories of people who feel prison actually helped them becoming better people, and I’d love to know more.
Of course, only if you feel like talking about it; if not, this is alright!
Lucked out and made (and still have) a great friend who’d always call out my bullshit and also talk through what was wrong with my mindset and thoughts. God, I was insufferable
Honestly, I touched grass and made some good good friends. I matured and realized incel shit wasent very cash money. I wasent full incel but I was definitely on the path. I worked on myself a lot and really grew into just enjoying my hobbies. I learned that I wasent mature enough for a relationship and didn’t respect myself enough. I still have a lot to learn and will continue to learn and grow. Currently im in a nice relationship and around good friends
I’m not an incel. But according to modern internet I am because I’m virgin and I’m aware that no women would want to fuck me plus being a loser. I never clawed. There’s your answer.
I changed my gender.
How the turntables
That’s cheating! (Just joking, good for you, I wish all the happiness to you, seriously!)
“If you can’t beat 'em, join 'em.”
Couldn’t get a girlfriend so I became the girlfriend
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them” also kinda works here…
Femcel now then?
Escape incel culture with this one simple trick! ™
I was heading down that path in my teens. It basically took the intervention of my cousin, who started making me hang out with her friends. Realized that people can like me if I act like myself and treat them like people.
I thought to myself “no cap this kinda mid fr fr on… ratio” and pussy appeared.
I took estrogen.
I was like fuck them they are so pretty 😭 Now I am pretty yayHell yeah! Be pretty!
No but seriously I was kinda incel once. I barely can remember that time but it involved lots of substances, clubs and things that were supposed to make you manly. Other people enjoyed them, me? I only wanted these things to make me more manly. I thought it can be learned or acquired with enough cigarettes, beer and calling people names and doing stupid ‘acts of masculinity’. I mistook antisocial for masculine I think in this pursuit.
When I felt empathy? again at 27 years old it was amazing. Like a blind person who has seen colours first time since losing them at the young age.It’s truly amazing that we are capable of caring and this deep connection as humans and I don’t think there’s anything more worthwhile.
I feel that “I’m not pretty” stuff too!
But wary of taking estrogen and going with transitioning for social reasons and also because I kinda want to remain sexually active and keep a solid dick lol
So, crossdressing and some makeup it is!
I’d kill myself sooner than see myself in the mirror as an old man one day. It’s pretty easy indicator. Old woman - yeah whatever could be nice, old man - no fucking way brr
And social things, yeah well this is admittedly something that is problematic but I am a firm believer that if you are confident enough, you can get away with just about anything.
I am just me, Emmie, hello. Nothing less or more and the rest anyone can make up in their heads as they see fit. Not my business
Cool!
In any case, I admire your bravery and the firm dedication to be yourself. I wish you the best of luck!
I read the last line in Mysticats voice lol
