A consciousness is not an “output” of a human brain.
Fair enough. Obviously consciousness is more complex than that. I should have put “efferent neural actions” first in that case, consciousness just being a side effect, something different yet composed of the same parts, an emergent phenomenon. How would you describe consciousness, though? I wish you would offer that instead of just saying “nuh uh” and calling me chatGPT :(
Not sure how you interpreted what I wrote in the rest of your comment though. I never mentioned humans teaching each other causal relations? I only compared the training of neural networks to evolutionary principles, where at one point we had entities that interacted with their environment in fairly simple and predictable ways (a “deterministic algorithm” if you will, as you said in another comment), and at some later point we had entities that we would call intelligent.
What I am saying is that at some point the pattern recognition “trained” by evolution (where inputs are environmental distress/eustress, and outputs are actions that are favorable to the survival of the organism) became so advanced that it became self-aware (higher pattern recognition on itself?) among other things. There was a point, though, some characteristic, self-awareness or not, where we call something intelligence as opposed to unintelligent. When I asked where you draw the line, I wanted to know what characteristic(s) need to be present for you to elevate something from the status of “pattern recognition” to “intelligence”.
It’s tough to decide whether more primitive entities were able to form causal relationships. When they saw predators, did they know that they were going to die if they didn’t run? Did they at least know something bad would happen to them? Or was it just a pre-programmed neural response that caused them to run? Most likely the latter.
Based on all that we know and observe, a dog (any animal, really) understands concepts and causal relations to varying degrees. That’s true intelligence.
From another comment, I’m not sure what you mean by “understands”. It could mean having knowledge about the nature of a thing, or it could mean interpreting things in some (meaningful) way, or it could mean something completely different.
To your last point, logical thinking is possible, but of course humans can’t do it on our own. We had to develop a system for logical thinking (which we call “logic”, go figure) as a framework because we are so bad at doing it ourselves. We had to develop statistical methods to determine causal relations because we are so bad at doing it on our own. So what does it mean to “understand” a thing? When you say an animal “understands” causal relations, do they actually understand it or is it just another form of pattern recognition (why I mentioned pavlov in my last comment)? When humans “understand” a thing, do they actually understand, or do we just encode it with the frameworks built on pattern recognition to help guide us? A scientific model is only a model, built on trial and error. If you “understand” the model you do not “understand” the thing that it is encoding. I know you said “to varying degrees”, and this is the sticking point. Where do you draw the line?
When you want to have artificial intelligence, even the most basic software can have some kind of limited understanding that actually fits this attempt at a definition - it’s just that the functionality will be very limited and pretty much appear useless.
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You could program image recognition using math to find certain shapes, which in turn - together with colour ranges and/or contrasts - could be used to associate object types, for which causal relations can be defined, upon which other parts of an AI could then base decision processes. This process has potential for error, but in a similar way that humans can mischaracterize the things we see - we also sometimes do not recognize an object correctly.
I recognize that you understand the point I am trying to make. I am trying to make the same point, just with a different perspective. Your description of an “actually intelligent” artificial intelligence closely matches how sensory data is integrated in the layers of the visual cortex, perhaps on purpose. My question still stands, though. A more primitive species would integrate data in a similar, albeit slightly less complex, way: take in (visual) sensory information, integrate the data to extract easier-to-process information such as brightness, color, lines, movement, and send it to the rest of the nervous system for further processing to eventually yield some output in the form of an action (or thought, in our case). Although in the process of integrating, we necessarily lose information along the way for the sake of efficiency, so what we perceive does not always match what we see, as you say. Image recognition models do something similar, integrating individual pixel information using convolutions and such to see how it matches an easier-to-process shape, and integrating it further. Maybe it can’t reason about what it’s seeing, but it can definitely see shapes and colors.
You will notice that we are talking about intelligence, which is a remarkably complex and nuanced topic. It would do some good to sit and think deeply about it, even if you already think you understand it, instead of asserting that whoever sounds like they might disagree with you is wrong and calling them chatbots. I actually agree with you that calling modern LLMs “intelligent” is wrong. What I ask is what you think would make them intelligent. Everything else is just context so that you understand where I’m coming from.
Fair enough. Obviously consciousness is more complex than that. I should have put “efferent neural actions” first in that case, consciousness just being a side effect, something different yet composed of the same parts, an emergent phenomenon. How would you describe consciousness, though? I wish you would offer that instead of just saying “nuh uh” and calling me chatGPT :(
Not sure how you interpreted what I wrote in the rest of your comment though. I never mentioned humans teaching each other causal relations? I only compared the training of neural networks to evolutionary principles, where at one point we had entities that interacted with their environment in fairly simple and predictable ways (a “deterministic algorithm” if you will, as you said in another comment), and at some later point we had entities that we would call intelligent.
What I am saying is that at some point the pattern recognition “trained” by evolution (where inputs are environmental distress/eustress, and outputs are actions that are favorable to the survival of the organism) became so advanced that it became self-aware (higher pattern recognition on itself?) among other things. There was a point, though, some characteristic, self-awareness or not, where we call something intelligence as opposed to unintelligent. When I asked where you draw the line, I wanted to know what characteristic(s) need to be present for you to elevate something from the status of “pattern recognition” to “intelligence”.
It’s tough to decide whether more primitive entities were able to form causal relationships. When they saw predators, did they know that they were going to die if they didn’t run? Did they at least know something bad would happen to them? Or was it just a pre-programmed neural response that caused them to run? Most likely the latter.
From another comment, I’m not sure what you mean by “understands”. It could mean having knowledge about the nature of a thing, or it could mean interpreting things in some (meaningful) way, or it could mean something completely different.
To your last point, logical thinking is possible, but of course humans can’t do it on our own. We had to develop a system for logical thinking (which we call “logic”, go figure) as a framework because we are so bad at doing it ourselves. We had to develop statistical methods to determine causal relations because we are so bad at doing it on our own. So what does it mean to “understand” a thing? When you say an animal “understands” causal relations, do they actually understand it or is it just another form of pattern recognition (why I mentioned pavlov in my last comment)? When humans “understand” a thing, do they actually understand, or do we just encode it with the frameworks built on pattern recognition to help guide us? A scientific model is only a model, built on trial and error. If you “understand” the model you do not “understand” the thing that it is encoding. I know you said “to varying degrees”, and this is the sticking point. Where do you draw the line?
I recognize that you understand the point I am trying to make. I am trying to make the same point, just with a different perspective. Your description of an “actually intelligent” artificial intelligence closely matches how sensory data is integrated in the layers of the visual cortex, perhaps on purpose. My question still stands, though. A more primitive species would integrate data in a similar, albeit slightly less complex, way: take in (visual) sensory information, integrate the data to extract easier-to-process information such as brightness, color, lines, movement, and send it to the rest of the nervous system for further processing to eventually yield some output in the form of an action (or thought, in our case). Although in the process of integrating, we necessarily lose information along the way for the sake of efficiency, so what we perceive does not always match what we see, as you say. Image recognition models do something similar, integrating individual pixel information using convolutions and such to see how it matches an easier-to-process shape, and integrating it further. Maybe it can’t reason about what it’s seeing, but it can definitely see shapes and colors.
You will notice that we are talking about intelligence, which is a remarkably complex and nuanced topic. It would do some good to sit and think deeply about it, even if you already think you understand it, instead of asserting that whoever sounds like they might disagree with you is wrong and calling them chatbots. I actually agree with you that calling modern LLMs “intelligent” is wrong. What I ask is what you think would make them intelligent. Everything else is just context so that you understand where I’m coming from.