My husband and I own a house, but I’d give it up in a second for living in an apartment, if it meant housing for all
I’d wait in longer lines for healthcare, if it meant healthcare for all
I’d eat foods I don’t much care for, if it meant food for all
I’d wait at a bus depot or train station, if it meant equitable transportation and saving the planet
It’s hard for me to fathom that there are people who wouldn’t do the same, who are willing to let others suffer for the tiniest bit of potential luxury
And before someone comes in with “lOoK wHaT a GoOd PeRsOn YoU aRe,” I’m really not. It doesn’t take a good person to not wish suffering on others.
the irony is that we wouldn’t need to sacrifice much (if at all) for those benefits – in other words, you could be completely selfish and still have a better life
US is sitting at 28 vacant homes per homeless person (city of Helsinki saved the country of Finland €15000 per person per year just by buying them a house)
healthcare for all (and better quality) would cost us about 2/3 what we’re paying now
we produce (and have) plenty of food for everyone but companies would rather throw it away if they can’t make a profit (John Steinbeck, The Grapes of Wrath)
better public transit means more convenience for everyone with the added benefits of better air quality, nicer neighborhoods, less wear-and-tear on infrastructure, cheaper commuting – !fuck_cars@lemmy.ml
but companies would rather throw it away if they can’t make a profit
Not just companies, I feel obliged to point out. The rot goes much deeper - independent farmers did the same at the time. The sickness is in society itself.
Just pointing out that independent farmers throw out food that is unprofitable to sell. It’s not like they’re greedy or something. When there’s a lot of food transportation costs mean you can lose money sending your food to market.
In that case no people are starving because food prices are very low. The problem in the Great Depression was that the conservative government didn’t want to intervene in the market and buy up the cheap food, so people did starve. This is part of the reason why conservatives lost power for twenty years.
Don’t forget that doing the bare minimum of simply wearing a mask when out and about during a global pandemic was too much for the majority of people to handle.
The lines are still long with private insurance, you’re not getting in for specialty procedures very quickly no matter what payment method you use. I say this as someone who does specialty neurodiagnostic procedures in the US. We don’t care if you can pay or you have this insurance or that, there’s a line everywhere and unless you’re coming in through the ED, you have to wait in it.
I’m not trying to start an argument or take away from your point, just trying to preempt the inevitable conservative arguments against universal healthcare.
I would love it if humanity allowed us to all live equally. If there wasn’t an overwhelming number of people that want to just take advantage of others who are willing to wait a little longer in line or give up luxuries for cheaper alternatives, it would be perfect.
Life, as beautiful as it can be, is also tainted by harsh realities. By all means, be charitable and kind when you can and help others to build a solid community. However, always be aware that there are also people that survive by draining the resources of others. As far as raw nature is concerned, both strategies are valid if it improves survival rates.
I can’t offer any magic solutions or even be a “perfect” person myself. Speaking from an animalistic point of view, my own survival depends on thinking about myself first and then the survival of my DNA second.
Thinking about the brutal realities of life is something I do often and balancing my needs with the needs of others is tough! If I die, or my resources are drained, I can’t support anyone else.
Humans are capable of great things and can work great together. Even one on one, most people are excellent to each other, actually.
Unfortunately, all it takes is a thin layer of anonymity to expose the worst in people. We see it online, in traffic and during times of crisis. Even now, people are more likely to express their real feelings and tell me that I am wrong or I am trying to be a “pseudo intellectual” in one case. Cool. That is within their rights but it doesn’t improve my outlook on society in any way.
This ain’t it, chief. The “bad” people you describe are few and far between and not doing any tangible amount of harm.
You know who’s really draining resources? The rich, landlords, CEOs. Hell, even suburbanites who live with 3-stall garages and Dodge Rams are draining more resources than the proverbial “welfare queens.”
That you see these people as what stands between us and equity instead of the people who are truly responsible is by design. It’s a sick, sick world. I’m well aware of the ill-intentioned people in this world, but they’re not the ones you’re describing in your comment.
You know who’s really draining resources? The rich, landlords, CEOs.
That’s mainly who I am referring to, btw. However, I do have a much more grim view on nature itself.
Its perfectly natural to see the world through rose colored classes. Unfortunately, I have seen too much of what the common person is capable of and not just on TV. I really want to believe that everyone wants to do “the right thing” in this world. By the same token, “the right thing” has a million different definitions.
I simply accept that everyone is capable of both wonderful things and also horrific things. It doesn’t take much to push a completely sane person into insanity. As an extreme example, war can do that to people. As a simple example, someone getting served cold fries at restaurant can be just as transforming.
By no means am I saying that living your life in fear and paranoia is a normal and healthy thing. It’s not. Everyone just needs to understand the best and worst of any situation.
If anything, doing as I suggest in my top comment would drastically reduce things like violence and hoarding resources. While it’s true that we are capable of both good and bad, it is also true that inherently inequitable systems like capitalism and the state greatly exacerbate the bad.
Therefore, the proper way to address this is to replace our current unjust/inequitable systems with systems that provide basic needs to all.
As a simple example, someone getting served cold fries at restaurant can be just as transforming.
And I believe what you say, in principle. However, people are still going to be people. Unless there is a massive shift in how an entire society thinks, a fair share is simply not enough for a lot of people.
Capitalism is just a symptom of the human condition. A lot of people desire power and control and will build empires to feed those desires. IMHO, this behavior is baked into our DNA at a very primal level. When we cannot get power and control ourselves, we tend to form hierarchies under people who do. Some societies are better at it than others but it always happens, one way or another.
To say a few simple steps will be reduce violence and resource hoarding is absolutely true. Unfortunately, I have to circle back to the previous paragraph: People will always desire more power and more control and will squabble over the most trivial things in an attempt to maintain what power and resources they may already have.
Again, I wholeheartedly agree that we can improve our own lives by helping those around us. It helps to surround yourself with people of a similar mindset, actually. However, I choose not to minimize the hell that is mother nature and what has shaped life on this planet for millions of years.
I’ve seen people lose their shit. I’ve worked in customer service. Most of it stems from the stress of living under capitalism and the pressures of a hierarchical state.
There’s a lot to unpack here, but I’d urge you to read Mutual Aid by Peter Kropotkin. Even just the first chapter or two, I think would change your opinion about human nature. I’ve experienced many setbacks, but I’ve seldom been so cynical to think that human nature is inherently selfish and greedy. TL;DR of that book, our ability to evolve relies more on mutual aid than on power and control. This applies even to other animals, when you start to look at it. The book cites multiple examples.
If you’re not up to reading that, then AudibleAnarchist has been uploading an audiobook:
This is tangential and anecdotal, but I’ve been beaten, abused, stolen from, manipulated, raped, humiliated, bullied, jailed … and I still don’t believe this crap is human nature. The kind of society I (and many others) envision can be a reality. I know it can.
That last paragraph is horrible. I mean that in the most supportive and sympathetic ways possible and I am sorry anyone has had to go through that. If I could hug you now, I would hug you now.
Unfortunately, I believe some people are just assholes. Same as you, I have been stolen from, bullied and abused as well. Even our combined experiences would be a cakewalk for some other more unfortunare people. In some ways, I am actually sympathetic to the people who feel the need to do those things to others.
Again, people are capable of great things! However, my experiences have not left me with fear or hate but rather, an abundance of caution. My opinions are just the summation of my experiences, after all. There are very few people that gave a shit when I was in my darkest of places, excluding some family. Quite honestly, other people have their own issues to deal with and my problems are not their concern.
There are very few people that gave a shit when I was in my darkest of places, excluding some family
I feel this to the core.
Maybe my own optimism is just a coping mechanism, but I simply can’t believe so many people are just selfish and bad. That just doesn’t compute for me, no matter my experiences.
If you feel so inclined, give the first chapter of that book a listen – don’t really need to read the whole thing because he just expands on details and supplies examples after that.
Hopefully things get better for people, no matter what it takes to get there.
Even our combined experiences would be a cakewalk for some other more unfortunare people
Yeah, when my husband talks about his life in Mexico that left him with PTSD … and many people have it worse yet. A lot of us are walking around half broken, I think.
This means you’re a good person but these trade-offs are false dichotomies. None of it is necessary to provide these services to all. We already have incredibly long wait times for healthcare in our ruthlessly for-profit system. The only thing that keeps those services from everyone is the greed of the extremely wealthy and the stupidity of those who fall for their lies.
I wouldn’t do those things, but we shouldn’t have to. We don’t have to give up quality medical care for everyone to have it. Or give up houses for everyone to have a place to live. The resources for these things are held by the ultra wealthy, not by the middle class.
You’re right about the healthcare thing, because we can just hire more medical professionals and give them better working conditions (including but not limited to pay).
Housing is different. Single family houses take up a lot of space. Space that necessarily reduces space available for other homes. You need to increase average housing density in order to be able to house everyone at a price that is affordable within a reasonable distance of opportunities for work and social activities.
Yes. And today they don’t work great. I’m living in today, and hope to plan to live in the future. I don’t plan to spend any more time living in the past, so I don’t advocate policies that might have worked in the past if they don’t also work in the future.
That said, the large single-family homes that dominate America and my own home country of Australia actually didn’t work “just great”. They created an over-reliance on the automobile, and by extension the fossil fuel industry. They ramped up rates of health problems relating to the fact that people get less exercise when they can’t walk or ride a bike to do basic errands. They isolated people from their sense of belonging to a community, and they stunted the growth in independence of children who now require to be driven by parents everywhere, rather than getting on their bikes and riding. The lawns that are synonymous with houses are also terrible ecologically.
So yes, if you look narrowly at it from a housing affordability standpoint, in the past, single family homes worked “just great”. But that’s not true today, and it was never true if you look at it from the broader societal impact.
My husband and I own a house, but I’d give it up in a second for living in an apartment, if it meant housing for all
I’d wait in longer lines for healthcare, if it meant healthcare for all
I’d eat foods I don’t much care for, if it meant food for all
I’d wait at a bus depot or train station, if it meant equitable transportation and saving the planet
It’s hard for me to fathom that there are people who wouldn’t do the same, who are willing to let others suffer for the tiniest bit of potential luxury
And before someone comes in with “lOoK wHaT a GoOd PeRsOn YoU aRe,” I’m really not. It doesn’t take a good person to not wish suffering on others.
Woah woah woah. That’s coMmuNiSM
Komrad, Do you think we can trick them by calling it Republic+?
the irony is that we wouldn’t need to sacrifice much (if at all) for those benefits – in other words, you could be completely selfish and still have a better life
Not just companies, I feel obliged to point out. The rot goes much deeper - independent farmers did the same at the time. The sickness is in society itself.
Nowadays we just pay farmers not to farm.
Just pointing out that independent farmers throw out food that is unprofitable to sell. It’s not like they’re greedy or something. When there’s a lot of food transportation costs mean you can lose money sending your food to market.
In that case no people are starving because food prices are very low. The problem in the Great Depression was that the conservative government didn’t want to intervene in the market and buy up the cheap food, so people did starve. This is part of the reason why conservatives lost power for twenty years.
Don’t forget that doing the bare minimum of simply wearing a mask when out and about during a global pandemic was too much for the majority of people to handle.
It wasn’t the majority
Minority of people.
The lines are still long with private insurance, you’re not getting in for specialty procedures very quickly no matter what payment method you use. I say this as someone who does specialty neurodiagnostic procedures in the US. We don’t care if you can pay or you have this insurance or that, there’s a line everywhere and unless you’re coming in through the ED, you have to wait in it.
Thank you. This is also an important point.
My comment was more of a thought experiment, since none of the things I listed actually require sacrificing the other.
I’m not trying to start an argument or take away from your point, just trying to preempt the inevitable conservative arguments against universal healthcare.
Yeah, I fully understand, and I appreciate that. It’s always an important point to make!
I would love it if humanity allowed us to all live equally. If there wasn’t an overwhelming number of people that want to just take advantage of others who are willing to wait a little longer in line or give up luxuries for cheaper alternatives, it would be perfect.
Life, as beautiful as it can be, is also tainted by harsh realities. By all means, be charitable and kind when you can and help others to build a solid community. However, always be aware that there are also people that survive by draining the resources of others. As far as raw nature is concerned, both strategies are valid if it improves survival rates.
I can’t offer any magic solutions or even be a “perfect” person myself. Speaking from an animalistic point of view, my own survival depends on thinking about myself first and then the survival of my DNA second.
Thinking about the brutal realities of life is something I do often and balancing my needs with the needs of others is tough! If I die, or my resources are drained, I can’t support anyone else.
The peudointellectual appears.
It’s not an intellectual conversation.
If a pseudointellectual could hang with actual intellectuals, they’d just be an intellectual.
https://theconversation.com/humans-arent-inherently-selfish-were-actually-hardwired-to-work-together-144145
Humans are capable of great things and can work great together. Even one on one, most people are excellent to each other, actually.
Unfortunately, all it takes is a thin layer of anonymity to expose the worst in people. We see it online, in traffic and during times of crisis. Even now, people are more likely to express their real feelings and tell me that I am wrong or I am trying to be a “pseudo intellectual” in one case. Cool. That is within their rights but it doesn’t improve my outlook on society in any way.
This ain’t it, chief. The “bad” people you describe are few and far between and not doing any tangible amount of harm.
You know who’s really draining resources? The rich, landlords, CEOs. Hell, even suburbanites who live with 3-stall garages and Dodge Rams are draining more resources than the proverbial “welfare queens.”
That you see these people as what stands between us and equity instead of the people who are truly responsible is by design. It’s a sick, sick world. I’m well aware of the ill-intentioned people in this world, but they’re not the ones you’re describing in your comment.
That’s mainly who I am referring to, btw. However, I do have a much more grim view on nature itself.
Its perfectly natural to see the world through rose colored classes. Unfortunately, I have seen too much of what the common person is capable of and not just on TV. I really want to believe that everyone wants to do “the right thing” in this world. By the same token, “the right thing” has a million different definitions.
I simply accept that everyone is capable of both wonderful things and also horrific things. It doesn’t take much to push a completely sane person into insanity. As an extreme example, war can do that to people. As a simple example, someone getting served cold fries at restaurant can be just as transforming.
By no means am I saying that living your life in fear and paranoia is a normal and healthy thing. It’s not. Everyone just needs to understand the best and worst of any situation.
If anything, doing as I suggest in my top comment would drastically reduce things like violence and hoarding resources. While it’s true that we are capable of both good and bad, it is also true that inherently inequitable systems like capitalism and the state greatly exacerbate the bad.
Therefore, the proper way to address this is to replace our current unjust/inequitable systems with systems that provide basic needs to all.
What.
And I believe what you say, in principle. However, people are still going to be people. Unless there is a massive shift in how an entire society thinks, a fair share is simply not enough for a lot of people.
Capitalism is just a symptom of the human condition. A lot of people desire power and control and will build empires to feed those desires. IMHO, this behavior is baked into our DNA at a very primal level. When we cannot get power and control ourselves, we tend to form hierarchies under people who do. Some societies are better at it than others but it always happens, one way or another.
To say a few simple steps will be reduce violence and resource hoarding is absolutely true. Unfortunately, I have to circle back to the previous paragraph: People will always desire more power and more control and will squabble over the most trivial things in an attempt to maintain what power and resources they may already have.
Again, I wholeheartedly agree that we can improve our own lives by helping those around us. It helps to surround yourself with people of a similar mindset, actually. However, I choose not to minimize the hell that is mother nature and what has shaped life on this planet for millions of years.
Have you never seen anyone completely loose their shit over the most trivial things? I have. Plenty of times. While I intended to use a made up example, I guess weirder shit has actually happened: https://abc7ny.com/mcdonalds-worker-shot-matthew-webb-michael-morgan-brooklyn/12100882/
People are as brilliant as they are stupid.
I’ve seen people lose their shit. I’ve worked in customer service. Most of it stems from the stress of living under capitalism and the pressures of a hierarchical state.
There’s a lot to unpack here, but I’d urge you to read Mutual Aid by Peter Kropotkin. Even just the first chapter or two, I think would change your opinion about human nature. I’ve experienced many setbacks, but I’ve seldom been so cynical to think that human nature is inherently selfish and greedy. TL;DR of that book, our ability to evolve relies more on mutual aid than on power and control. This applies even to other animals, when you start to look at it. The book cites multiple examples.
If you’re not up to reading that, then AudibleAnarchist has been uploading an audiobook:
YouTube link
Piped link
This is tangential and anecdotal, but I’ve been beaten, abused, stolen from, manipulated, raped, humiliated, bullied, jailed … and I still don’t believe this crap is human nature. The kind of society I (and many others) envision can be a reality. I know it can.
That last paragraph is horrible. I mean that in the most supportive and sympathetic ways possible and I am sorry anyone has had to go through that. If I could hug you now, I would hug you now.
Unfortunately, I believe some people are just assholes. Same as you, I have been stolen from, bullied and abused as well. Even our combined experiences would be a cakewalk for some other more unfortunare people. In some ways, I am actually sympathetic to the people who feel the need to do those things to others.
Again, people are capable of great things! However, my experiences have not left me with fear or hate but rather, an abundance of caution. My opinions are just the summation of my experiences, after all. There are very few people that gave a shit when I was in my darkest of places, excluding some family. Quite honestly, other people have their own issues to deal with and my problems are not their concern.
I feel this to the core.
Maybe my own optimism is just a coping mechanism, but I simply can’t believe so many people are just selfish and bad. That just doesn’t compute for me, no matter my experiences.
If you feel so inclined, give the first chapter of that book a listen – don’t really need to read the whole thing because he just expands on details and supplies examples after that.
Hopefully things get better for people, no matter what it takes to get there.
Yeah, when my husband talks about his life in Mexico that left him with PTSD … and many people have it worse yet. A lot of us are walking around half broken, I think.
Hoping for a better world.
This means you’re a good person but these trade-offs are false dichotomies. None of it is necessary to provide these services to all. We already have incredibly long wait times for healthcare in our ruthlessly for-profit system. The only thing that keeps those services from everyone is the greed of the extremely wealthy and the stupidity of those who fall for their lies.
I’m well aware, but I’m saying even if it were true that we had to, it would be well worth it.
I wouldn’t do those things, but we shouldn’t have to. We don’t have to give up quality medical care for everyone to have it. Or give up houses for everyone to have a place to live. The resources for these things are held by the ultra wealthy, not by the middle class.
You’re right about the healthcare thing, because we can just hire more medical professionals and give them better working conditions (including but not limited to pay).
Housing is different. Single family houses take up a lot of space. Space that necessarily reduces space available for other homes. You need to increase average housing density in order to be able to house everyone at a price that is affordable within a reasonable distance of opportunities for work and social activities.
Single family houses worked just great when we didn’t have 8 billion people. Density is a function of population too
Yes. And today they don’t work great. I’m living in today, and hope to plan to live in the future. I don’t plan to spend any more time living in the past, so I don’t advocate policies that might have worked in the past if they don’t also work in the future.
That said, the large single-family homes that dominate America and my own home country of Australia actually didn’t work “just great”. They created an over-reliance on the automobile, and by extension the fossil fuel industry. They ramped up rates of health problems relating to the fact that people get less exercise when they can’t walk or ride a bike to do basic errands. They isolated people from their sense of belonging to a community, and they stunted the growth in independence of children who now require to be driven by parents everywhere, rather than getting on their bikes and riding. The lawns that are synonymous with houses are also terrible ecologically.
So yes, if you look narrowly at it from a housing affordability standpoint, in the past, single family homes worked “just great”. But that’s not true today, and it was never true if you look at it from the broader societal impact.