The kernel is already monolithic enough without adding another piece of monolithic software that everything depends on. IMO the Unix philosophy means we should have interchangeable parts.
There’s some amount of user error here but when I did use systemd I had a hard time turning off services I didn’t want because they were in the wants-to-have entry of other services. It’s like a separate config area to maintain with a specific maintenance tool software instead of flat files.
I’m unfortunately using distros with systemd now tho.
Systemd is bloat, was somewhat forced upon Linux, took over critical projects (udev et al), huge attack surface, shit tooling (binary logs), not really modular in the sense of portability, not just an init system (behemoth).
Most of them think that they’re making a point about an argument their side lost almost a decade ago.
To which the other side replies with points outdated since the first other init/service manager aside from SysV and Systemd was invented.
- OpenRC just feels nice
- Runit is simple
- S6 is really fucking fast
- Some distros (e.g. Guix, Void, Gentoo) come with non-systemd init systems by default, but I use them for other reasons
As for why I sometimes use musl, I like BSD. Also, Alpine Linux uses it by default, and most glibc software I’ve tried works just fine with gcompat.
Guix uses shepherd so yeah
I use distros with systemd but damn, pretty soon it’s not gnu/linux anymore, it’ll be systemd/linux. systemd already manages services, bootloader, dns and networking. Maybe they’ll replace coreutils next and the transition is completed.
I don’t find that to be a problem. Systemd manages my system, I would not prefer having 10+ tools to do the same
That’s the very opposite of the Unix philosophy though.
And?
Linux is becoming more akin to BSD with the introduction of systemd.
more akin to BSD with the introduction of system
One difference: BSDs are coherent.
What actually are the advantages of system rc over systemd?
It’s easier to manage/secure since it’s essentially just shell scripts. Systemd touches a lot of things and makes the initialization process more complex, which introduces more security vectors.
It’s easier to manage/secure since it’s essentially just shell scripts
I love the fact that I can’t tell whether this is irony or not.
Not having to go on an hour-long googling adventure to figure out how to write a simple init script. If you know bash, that’s all you need if you’re running (for instance) OpenRC. Systemd services are a mishmash of obscure setting names.
Systemd is definitely more of a pain in the ass.
It’s a give and take honestly.
System-d has better logging. Until you have something that needs to really really log. You can argue that if you have something that’s that dependent on logging it shouldn’t be logging through the console but it’s worked fine for decades. Auto pruning of logs isn’t necessarily ideal. Getting console logs and assist logs as a pain in the ass.
Same goes for service dependencies we had this sorted it was answered via run levels and naming. It wasn’t necessarily the most elegant solution but it was simple and there was very little to go wrong.
The tools to manage the services and logs are needlessly complicated. Service start, service stop, service status, service log, service enable, service disable. And I shouldn’t have to reload the Daemon every time I make a change.
This isn’t to say that it’s all bad. It’s flexible, and for most workflows, it’s very automated and very light touch. The other pruning on the log file says probably saved a lot of downtime, a whole lot of downtime.
It’s really well suited to desktop.
Service creation is somewhat easier.
Dependencies are more flexible than run levels.
To be honest I wouldn’t go out of my way to run in a non-system distro but I would feel a little sigh of relief if something I was screwing with was still init.d
I’m not an anti-systemd extremist. I use Void because it is a simple distro that doesn’t break as often as Arch does, while also being very up-to-date.
I do have some things I dislike about systemd though which is why I will continue avoiding it in the future.
- It doesn’t follow the Unix Philosophy. This is a big problem for me, I want to be able to switch out different parts of my system as I please. Systemd is a collection of projects that are all so deeply integrated that you can’t use them without also running the Systemd init system. And now Desktop Environments are starting to depend on Logind for example and there’s no alternative for non-systemd users. (Except Elogind but that’s just Logind ripped out of SystemD)
- It’s bloated and has many features I don’t use. I just need an init system to start all my services at boot and restart them if they fail. Nothing more
Also using a Distro without Systemd is not really that hard
At this point i don’t care anymore if my system has systemd or whatever, as long it’s works i don’t have complaint
Maybe back when I’m still young i will agree with majority linux enthusiasm that systemd is bloat, GUI is bloat, or whatever. But now as long it’s work & can do job properly i don’t care or even careLife is bloat.
Jokes aside, GUI really is bloat. Especially when it’s made by a corporate company with absolute dogshit development practices.
On a more serious note, systemd is bloat. With all of you new kids coming over to this side, start with the right way: the runit way. Also compile Gentoo whilst you’re at it.
Obligatory /s if anyone is offended, you bunch of snowflakes
/s is bloat, say it like you mean it!
I would, but I’m 2 years old and care about attention on Lemmy. I got downvoted already.
Maybe votes are bloat. I need to change my mentality
Btw I’m using Garuda Linux for my daily drive
I like how simple and fast runit is. And the added security is nice.
For a while I had an Asus laptop, and no matter what, it seemed to not want to work properly with systemd-based distros. It would hang on-boot about 95+% of the time, I’d hard shut-off, restart, repeat.
On a whim, I tried Void Linux (runit) on it. And for whatever reason, it worked.
Because they can.
Me using runit, I agree
For the good of all of us
Except the ones who are dead
But there’s no sense crying after every mistake.
You just keep on trying 'til you run out of cake.
And the science gets done, and you made a neat distro.
For the people who are using linux.
I’ve been using linux for ~2 years now and only know one of these (GUI installer), anyone smarter than me can explain what they are?
Systemd is an init system (the first process that manages/runs everything else). However it does far more than a traditional init system; arguably it’s tendrils are all over mainstream Linux now.
GLIBC is the GNU Project’s implementation of the C standard library. It is a wrapper around system calls of the kernel for application use.
To be fair, I don’t think systemd is classified as just an init system anymore. It’s a software suite that just “conveniently” happened to have an init system included.
I had to debug dns issues with a wm. Was disgusted what Systemd all does what it shouldn’t.
Musl was fine until i had to install the one blob most people hate and love, Steam.
Systemd is nice, but it touches way too much IMO. Like, why does it need to touch DNS?
systemd-resolved is an independent binary and entirely optional, just developed by the same project.
That said, it’s good. Supported DoT and DNSSEC early, easy to configure. No complaints for simple usage.
And it does proper split DNS by default, using the search domains of each interface. That way you can configure a global DNS resolver while still being able to resolve local hostnames and without leaking other queries. I just hope they’ll also add DoH support, which is less likely to be blocked on a corporate network.
and entirely optional
In.the sense that it is usually delivered with all the other optional modules, and for alternatives or the old default you would need a bunch of shims and wrappers.
The developer of SystemD was mildly rude to some people back in 2009
That means everything he makes is pure evil by definition and explanations as to why it’s bad will be invented post-hoc to make it make sense.
Linux developers are famous for how civil they handle their arguments. Especially that Linus Torvalds guy.
Fuck you
You forgot "Nvidia, " part
Don’t make me say it to you too
Especially that Linus Torvalds guy.
Wait until you learn about the beloved OpenBSD leader Theo De Raadt.
Imagine being so hard no other but frigging Linus Tolvards says you’re “difficult”.
