Seeing as how Mussolini has a daughter who is alive today and just as fascist as their father, is this person Marx’ descendant?
Are we acting like the US isn’t the biggest surveillance state existing in all history?
So because there’s one app they don’t control the data on, we need to ban it? Sounds like the free market to me.
I mean, US TikTok data is already processed by Oracle. And Larry Ellison’s Oracle is a CIA operation. They already control the relevant data - exclusively.
What they want is all of the data, so that the US can use it to harm national security of other states. It’s projection, as always in US politics.
It’s also definitively fascist… as always in US politics.
Yes, I too would love the US president to decide which social media platforms I am allowed to legally use and who I can legally communicate with. I’m so scared China is going to, checks notes, influence my opinion that I’m willing to sacrifice my free speech rights in the process. Regulate me harder, daddy! 😍
Back to hexbear with you!
I didn’t realize “low effort posts” was just lemmy.ml for “anything I don’t like.”
Damn I didn’t know Hexbear was this based
It’s actually Congress
Has anybody actually read the bill?
The whole bill is about giving the government power to ban “foreign adversary controlled applications” and there’s nothing about the president being able to ban whatever app they want.
The bill defines a foreign adversary as: “a country specified in section 4872(d)(2) of title 10, United States Code”:
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The People’s Republic of China, including the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (China);
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Republic of Cuba (Cuba);
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Islamic Republic of Iran (Iran);
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Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (North Korea);
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Russian Federation (Russia); and
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Venezuelan politician Nicolás Maduro (Maduro Regime).
So unless you are on the side of the enemies of the US and want social media apps controlled by them, I don’t know why you wouldn’t support this bill.
Edit: I think the misunderstanding/misinformation comes from a few places, but ultimately I think it boils down to the fact the bill requires the app/platform to be a foreign adversary AND it requires a presidential executive order before the app will be banned.
I will never really understand why china’s on these lists. I know it’s because theyre communist and commies = bad, but every other country on their has literally vowed to kill Americans, while china’s biggest crime is making close to as much money as we do.
china’s biggest crime is making close to as much money as we do.
Nah man, I’m pretty sure the Tiananmen square massacre was a bigger crime. Not to mention their genocide of the Uighur people, their oppression of Hong Kong, their attempts to steal Taiwan’s sovereignty.
ETA: big thanks to OP for so clearly and concisely showing they’re a tankie.
Tiananmen square massacre
- The Tian’anmen Square ‘Massacre’: The West’s Most Persuasive, Most Pervasive Lie.
- 1989 Tian’anmen Square riots
- A Note on the Tiananmen Protests
- Images from Tiananmen 1989 the West never shows (NSFW / CW: violence and death)
- ‘Tank Man’: the full footage. Tiananmen Square, Beijing, 1989
their genocide of the Uighur people
This bullshit never ends, does it?
- https://lemmy.ml/comment/8588979
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
their oppression of Hong Kong
Hong Kong was the product of the UK’s century of Chinese oppression, and their 99 year lease on oppressing Hong Kong ended in 1997.
steal Taiwan’s sovereignty
Taiwan is only considered sovereign by eleven countries, most of which are micronations like the Holy See, the Marshall Islands, and Tuvalu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_status_of_Taiwan
was a bigger crime
I’m pretty sure the Tiananmen square massacre was a bigger crime.
Even the propaganda version pales compared to the shit they forgive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre
https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/8/8/20747198/philadelphia-bombing-1985-movegenocide of the Uighur people
Even the propaganda version pales compared to the shit they forgive.
https://www.mintpressnews.com/15-years-on-the-staggering-death-toll-in-iraq-keeps-climbing/239055/
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-trackertheir oppression of Hong Kong
Even the propaganda version pales compared to the shit they forgive.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/06/us-police-killings-record-number-2022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Statestheir attempts to steal Taiwan’s sovereignty
Yeah alright go home mate.
Nice try CIA
The USA has invaded Cuba and the DPRK. Literally the only thing they want from the USA is to be left alone and allowed to be friends with whoever they want without the USA threatening to kill anyone who talks to them. They’d both be radiated wastelands if the USA could make that happen unscathed.
unless you are on the side of the enemies of the US
You mean enemies of the US’s ruling class of capitalists, who are the working class’s allies.
“Your enemies are not our enemies.” - Nelson Mandela (who, btw, was on the US terrorist list until 2013 and is/was an enemy of the US)
Those are not my adversaries, they’re the adversaries of US military industrial-complex and the imperial core capitalists in general. One reason they’re a thorn in the capitalists’ side is that they’re unable to exploit them through neocolonialism.
What has Cuba done to me? The reason Cuba has been under an illegal, grinding embargo for sixty years is that they pose the threat of a good example to the capitalist class: Americans Can Now Expect to Live Three Years Less than Cubans
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Large centralised social media platform should all be banned. I miss the times when all you had was forums hosted in someone’s basement, the Internet was a better place. Short form video content is the worst of the bunch though.
The TikTok ban is The Patriot Act 2.0
No, that’s massively downplaying the Patriot Act.
You are aware that this bill has a much broader scope than TikTok, right?
Yes, and I’ve read most of it. It’s not nearly as bad as the Patriot Act.
I’m absolutely against this ban on first amendment grounds, but it’s not nearly as bad as the Patriot Act was and still is (it has changed names, but it’s pretty similar to how it was when passed).
Most of it? It’s 2 pages long. It’s not like you need much length with such sweeping provisions, though.
The Patriot Act isn’t under a different name right now, instead the provisions were legalized through judicial precedence before it was allowed to expire. I guess that’s quite a small nitpick in the end (other than not being able to repeal it).
Yes, the bill isn’t that long, but I kind of skimmed parts.
The Patriot Act was reauthorized several times, and it eventually expired, but it’s still effectively enforced by permanent provisions as well as other bills passed since then.
Regardless, equating this bill and the Patriot Act is nonsensical. This bill allows the government to ban apps and services from adversary countries. It doesn’t authorize data collection on citizens or any of the other nonsense we got from the Patriot Act, it merely allows the government to block certain apps and services from US markets. It’s hardly the same thing.
nonsensical
That’s at least as hyperbolic as calling it the Patriot Act 2.0.
It doesn’t authorize data collection on citizens or any of the other nonsense we got from the Patriot Act
No need. It’s already legal. This bill builds on top of that foundation in a very meaningful way.
it merely allows the government to block certain apps and services from US markets
And the reason for this is evident based on the choice given to TikTok - allow the US access to all users data (preferably exclusively the US) through methods up to and including selling foreign stakes in the company. The world is capitalist and being closed out of US markets is an impossible handicap to play with. No one will invest because there is a severe limit to growth. This only leads to one outcome: Centralization of data through the US, or the business will be replaced with one that does.
Not if it literally kills Open Source.
How is open source related to anything at all here?
I don’t use TikTok and I don’t think anyone really should but if we’re going to ban TikTok for data collection then there are a lot of platforms that need to be banned. We know the 2016 election was fucked with through Facebook and not a damn thing has been done.
We know the 2016 election was fucked with through Facebook and not a damn thing has been done.
Okay I’ll beat that dead horse.
- IT Pro: Cambridge Analytica models were exaggerated and ineffective, [UK Information Commissioner’s Office] claims
- Wall Street Journal: Mueller Doesn’t Find Trump Campaign Conspired With Russia
- Jacobin: Democrats and Mainstream Media Were the Real Kremlin Assets
- Washington Post: Russian trolls on Twitter had little influence on 2016 voters
- Jacobin: It Turns Out Hillary Clinton, Not Russian Bots, Lost the 2016 Election
- Matt Taibbi: Move Over, Jayson Blair: Meet Hamilton 68, the New King of Media Fraud The Twitter Files reveal that one of the most common news sources of the Trump era was a scam, making ordinary American political conversations look like Russian spywork
- MSNBC Repeats Hamilton 68 Lies 279 Times in 11 Minutes
- Jeff Gerth at Columbia Journalism Review on Russiagate: Editor’s Note | Part one | Part two | Part three | Part four
- Matt Taibbi: WMD, Part II: CIA “Cooked The Intelligence” To Hide That Russia Favored Clinton, Not Trump In 2016
- Chris Hedges: Why Russiagate Won’t Go Away
Seems pretty cherry picked. From the Wapo regarding Twitter:
But the study doesn’t go so far as to say that Russia had no influence on people who voted for President Donald Trump.
It doesn’t examine other social media, like the much-larger Facebook.
Nor does it address Russian hack-and-leak operations. Another major study in 2018 by University of Pennsylvania communications professor Kathleen Hall Jamieson suggested those probably played a significant role in the 2016 race’s outcome.
Lastly, it doesn’t suggest that foreign influence operations aren’t a threat at all.
It doesn’t examine other social media, like the much-larger Facebook.
Facebook Partners With Hawkish Atlantic Council, a NATO Lobby Group, to “Protect Democracy”
All of the US corporate social media platforms are part of the US military-industrial-intellegence complex now. Look at their boards of directors and executives. Look at Reddit:
- Jessica Ashooh: The taming of Reddit and the National Security State Plant tabbed to do it
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
- r/neoliberal was created by a neoliberal think tank » BPR Interviews: The Neoliberal Project
.
TikTok as well. We’ve known since Snowden that US “cloud”/hosting companies are deeply embedded. The US already forced them to move their service to the US onto one of those providers, and they have already put people with a history of aligning with “American interests” into executive positions, like CEO Shou Zi Chew and vice president Michael Beckerman.They have their eye on the fediverse now, too: Atlantic Council » Collective Security in a Federated World
As I’ve said before, the threat has always been coming from inside the house:
.
Lastly, it doesn’t suggest that foreign influence operations aren’t a threat at all.
One can’t prove a negative, and I’m sure there isn’t literally nothing that has happened or will ever happen. But trying to propagandize the voters of the most propagandized country in the world probably isn’t the most efficient way to go about it. Bribing politicians surely would be more efficient, for example.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
MSNBC Repeats Hamilton 68 Lies 279 Times in 11 Minutes
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I appreciate you beating the dead horse, especially with all the sources.
how do i nominate your for a commendation?
It didn’t but you’re still correct about the rest of your comment.
We definitely need to legislate the way that they operate and make the majority of the corporate surveillance that is happening now illegal. Facebook should face consequences, as should Google, Reddit, and all the others. That doesn’t mean that we ignore TikTok though. We should address problematic companies both domestic and foreign. But only one of those companies is partially owned and heavily influenced by an oppressive foreign government.
It’s one thing to regulate foreign corporations and you don’t see me making a case against the EU for regulating Apple or Google. You see me saying this isn’t about data collection like they say, it’s about preserving US power in the software space. The US is completely within it’s rights to block TikTok but you don’t need to lie to me and say it’s for security. The servers are located in the US, there’s no real evidence China has done anything illegal and if Google did the same thing and sold the data to China it would be fine. This whole issue is a bunch of individuals sucking on billionaire tech giant toes.
Democrats have convinced themselves taking over TikTok is the solution to their problems, but the reality is that if Joe Biden signs this bill into law when he is already tanking in the polls, particularly with young voters, he will hand the election to Trump. The youth will not forgive a party that was so extreme it banned or hijacked their favourite platform to censor them in order to keep a genocide going.
Best line is at the end
Yes, and?
Does anyone think that China is just full of the warm fuzzies and wants us all to hold hands, make smores and sing kumbaya? They are every bit after power as the US is to hold onto it.
The United States has freedom of speech, freedom of travel, constitutional protections for your home and property, and the opportunity to improve your socioeconomic standings. China has none of those things. My first reaction to the headline was “fucking good!”. China is a one party State that operates as an effective dictatorship. They imprison journalists and protestors, they have legal slavery, they have almost no concern for the environment - massively poluting the planet, and they are extremely oppressive. Everyone’s all about Free Hong Kong and then come on Lemmy and act like they’re friends with the CCP. Who the fuck do you think Hong Kong seeks freedom from?
Freedom of speech? Yes and no. The government has freedom of speech, but American TikTok clones do not. If TikTok users are successfully forced to use YouTube Shorts instead, they’ll get stuck with YouTube’s censorship and content control for corporate friendliness and user engagement. People like Elon give “free speech” a bad name, but it is actually a problem if for most people “the internet” is controlled by a small number of big technology companies and those companies use their positions, intentionally or not, to suppress ideas and control public discourse. TikTok users will still need to use words like “unalive” on platforms owned by American corporations.
Constitutional protections for your home and property? Not really. Many people are renting and protections for renters vary by state. Property can be stolen by police through civil asset forfeiture.
The opportunity to improve your socioeconomic standings, ie The American Dream, is largely a myth. Recently, the poor get poorer. Real estate values and cost of living are climbing much faster than wages for those at the bottom. If you’re at the bottom, it’s even more difficult than usual to get the four year degree and years of prior job experience required for many entry level positions with better pay.
America has legal slavery enshrined in the constitution. If somebody is convicted of a crime, they can be sent to private prisons to do slave labor for somebody else’s profit. This disproportionately affects poor people and minorities.
Every bit of this is truly wrong. You’ve been brainwashed by Western propaganda. I would guess you’re from the US
What are your sources for disputing the individual points they raised? I’ve happy to change my mind on this is you provide evidence.
Pretty easy to see the difference when we compare all the wars US has been involved in and all the countries where US has brutally interfered to what China has been doing.
These freedoms are a strength indeed, but they are also a vulnerability that can be exploited by foreign powers. Freedoms remain free so long as the people exercising those freedoms do so responsibly. I think a lot of people in the US do not exercise this freedom responsibly. I think a lot of Americans are being manipulated into voting in autocracy. Ironically.
Complete and total freedom is just anarchy, and anarchy collapses on itself and turns into autocracy.
Not all states are equivalent.
The US is the hegemonic imperial core country (like the UK before it) and has been since the end of WWII, and even moreso since the end of Cold War I. The imperial core’s imperialism is driven by the monopoly stage of capitalism. The imperial core has been pillaging the Global South for the last 200+ years and caused WWI & WWII & Cold War I, and has now started Cold War II.
The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
But China is not a capitalist state and is not driven by the forces of monopoly capitalism that the imperial core is driven by.
Americans downvoting you, mad they are the bad guys.
I’ll look through your sources because they seem intersting but China is 100% a capitalist state. They ditched communism years ago and only kept the authoritarianism
Let’s take a page from Helldivers and call it “Managed Capitalism.” Surely far better than rootstock /s
If it’s a 100% capitalist state then why is it ensuring that its people can afford housing at the expense of the capitalists? CNBC this week: China’s housing minister says real estate developers must go bankrupt if necessary
“We will scale up the building and supply of government-subsidized housing and improve the basic systems for commodity housing to meet people’s essential need for a home to live in and their different demands for better housing,” an English-language version of the report said.
Unlike Obama, who bailed out the private banks at the expense of people with home mortgages. Michael Hudson, 2023: Why the Bank Crisis isn’t Over
The financial sector is the core of Democratic Party support, and the party leadership is loyal to its supporters. As President Obama told the bankers who worried that he might follow through on his campaign promises to write down mortgage debts to realistic market valuations in order to enable exploited junk-mortgage clients to remain in their homes, “I’m the only one between you [the bankers visiting the White House] and the mob with the pitchforks,” that is, his characterization of voters who believed his “hope and change” patter talk.
The Federal Reserve is just the cartel of the US private banks, whereas banking in China is predominantly state owned. The Chinese state both runs these banks and has fiat monetary sovereignty, so it’s not answerable to the capitalists like the US is.
Capitalist countries still have social programs mate. Unless you think Canada is a communist country because we have free healthcare? I suppose I could call it a mixed economy if it makes you feel better
On a side note, owning a home is culturally very different in China than in the western world. They have a massive housing bubble ongoing and its pretty wild. Look up China Ghost towns. Some insightful shit.
The imperial core countries affords those—notably deteriorating—social programs through the exploitation of the periphery countries, programs which the core does not allow the periphery to have. The global north working class paid for those concessions with our blood & sweat, though no one seems to remember, thanks to two red scares and a cold war. The purpose of FDR’s New Deal was to save capitalism from socialist threats, and the capitalists have spent the last fifty years chipping away at their New Deal concessions. Europe had its own, even stronger socialist movements, and their capitalists similarly ceded ground temporarily.
China escaped from the imperial core’s predation in the last century, and is still in the process of recovering from it.
United Nations, 2019: Helping 800 Million People Escape Poverty Was Greatest Such Effort in History, Says Secretary-General, on Seventieth Anniversary of China’s FoundingDespite over sixty years of imperial core-enforced sanctions, Americans Can Now Expect to Live Three Years Less than Cubans.
Look up China Ghost towns.
I am familiar with them. Those were planned communities that were photographed after construction but before being populated. Perhaps there were some duds, I couldn’t say: researching every bit of US propaganda gish gallop isn’t my day job.
This Is What The World’s Loneliest Metro Station Looks Like Today
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
This Is What The World’s Loneliest Metro Station Looks Like Today
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Bans can be bypassed, but my concern is if the new law makes it criminal to use tiktok. If so, the media should stop saying “tiktok ban” and instead say “new law makes it a crime to use tiktok”
It’s a hosting ban on US servers and app stores. People already downloaded the app will continue to be able to use it.
That is if Bytedance doesn’t sell.
And what happens when they make it a criminal of fence to bypass the ban?
Yikes, what a flawed set of premises.
" What if Canada did the same thing to the US? They did!"
No, they didn’t. Canada tried to boost Canadian media presence on American streaming platforms.
Making sure gooby gets an international viewing very different from transmitting information to an overtly hostile government known for cyber attacks on its international peers.
“The platform isn’t a national security threat”.
On what basis are they making that claim? It’s absolutely a fact according to that the app TikTok is based off of, Douyin, sends the private data of every user straight to bytedance, owned in powerful minority stake by the Chinese government and that tiktok did the same thing with US user data until they promised they stopped a couple years ago.
As of January 2024 however, whoops, US citizen data(names, birthdates, location) is still being sent back to bytedance: https://www.wsj.com/tech/tiktok-pledged-to-protect-u-s-data-1-5-billion-later-its-still-struggling-cbccf203?mod=followamazon
It’s not some baseless concern, it’s a national security consequence against data disclosures that were already carried out and have continued to this year despite assurances 2 years ago that data leaks to bytedance are not happening.
“Instrument of soft power”
Marvel movies becoming super popular internationally is an example of soft power. Gathering the personal information of users with a continuing precedent attacking US digital infrastructures and democratic institutions is not soft power, it is hostile statecraft.
I am not a proponent of monolithic tech companies nor am I particularly aligned against international competition in tech supremacy, but this ban isn’t about theoretical cultural competition.
This tiktok ban is about the recent gathering of personal information that can be used to assess and attack digital infrastructures and electoral behaviors by entities that are continually attacking digital infrastructures and electoral processes, entities focused on consolidating power not within some international free market of soft cultural influence but by gathering and consolidating power and using that power to forward state ambitions.
@Varyk@sh.itjust.works @davel@lemmy.ml
If we wanted national data and communication security we would shut off the transatlantic cables and physically separate the U.S. Internet from the rest of the world. All matters of diplomacy could be conducted in public courts at the coastlines instead of over telephone wires and emails. Problem solved. We could set up a nice star-spangled curtain and let all the globalists rot from the fallout.
“Afraid of your neighbor’s dog? Never leave your room, add a harness to your bed and strap in, wear plate armor at all times”.
Not exactly practical.
There are ways to improve security without immobilizing yourself.
Blocking the widespread distribution and use of an app that sends personal and national data to a hostile government actively collecting and using that data to conduct digital and electoral attacks is not immobilizing, it’s a simple step with zero downside that safeguards hundreds of millions of people.
The probability of a war between the US and China is very high as judged by the US military. Prominently over the Taiwan situation. Having service members with tiktok on their devices would be terrible for opsec. To me this confirms that we are continuing to track on that train of thought. With that line of thinking this seems to an increased likelihood. Be careful out there folks.
Just my thoughts…
I thought government employees were already banned from having TikTok on their devices. Does that not also apply to military personnel?
The ban only applies to government devices. Government employees and military personnel can still have it on their personal devices, just that no one can install on a government device. Which really has me wondering, was that an option originally? Did I squander an opportunity to browse reddit all day from my government machine instead of “working”?
That just doesn’t seem very enforceable.
@EvacuateSoul@lemmy.world @Chozo@fedia.io
The fiasco is just political theater. Watch the right hand, don’t see what the left hand is doing.
How so? Have them use government equipment and restrict what gets installed on that equipment. It’s not that hard.
They can use what they want on their personal devices, and the government can restrict access to their personal devices while they’re on duty
Right, so not banning it on their devices, which would be hard to enforce.
TikTok is banned from official devices, i.e. and phone provided by the DoD, etc. There is no ban on it being on a personal phone; just a strong recommendation against having the app.
