I’m actually getting a bit upset at these idealists. They have this childish notion that democracy works in this tit for tat way where politicians “earn” your vote by instating policies that benefit you and that you believe in. Like grow the fuck up already.
No, it’s the democrats fault!
It’s amazing how we get convinced to fight each other. The reason the orange felon got elected is that people voted for him. They are at fault that he got elected. Stop bickering amongst each other and call out those who would incite you to do so!
Harris ran a perfect campaign. If she was running as a (pre-Trump) republican. However, we know that:
- She isn’t a Republican
- She banked on pulling in republican voters, instead of rallying her base
- Republicans will almost always vote for the R instead of policy
- She backed off of every single progressive idea she started with
- She trotted out establishment Democrats to lecture the electorate instead of inspire them
- Tlaib pulled twice the numbers as Harris as the only anti-genocide Palestinian in Congress
It’s Harris and the Democrats. Should people have voted? Yes. Is it understandable why people didn’t want to vote for the person telling them that she’ll be a good republican and support a genocide? Also yes.
I didn’t realize a wealth tax, 25k credit for first time home buyers, support for legalized cannabis, support for trans people, etc were Republican policies.
Are there more things on my progressive checklist? Yes, definitely. Universal healthcare, for one.
Part of being an adult is not being able to get everything you want when you want it.
Part of politics in the US is understanding that some of those things that Harris supported which resulted in a candidate that was not far left enough to get progressives off the couch, are too far left for other voters.
I don’t envy whoever is picking up the pieces at the DNC and trying to determine what the precise amount of leftism is that will get those 10-15 million leftists off the couch without alienating the 60-70 million that did show up.
This is especially true for the Palestine issue. How many of those 10-15 million watching from the sidelines would have shown up for a pro-Palestine candidate? Even if it was 10 million, there would still have been more who would sit this one out or vote Trump, because they’d believe the bullshit that the Palestinians are all terrorists. I truly wish it wasn’t the case, but I fear the post-911 Islamophobia and the imperialist attitudes about support for Israel would have cost a pro-Palestine candidate more votes than they would have gained.
a wealth tax
Did she actually campaign on this, or was it just some white paper she had on her website? There’s a difference between having a policy that you are campaigning on and actually intend to carry out and some vague policy paper a staffer wrote.
25k credit for first time home buyers This was an absolute embarrassment of a policy. Did you see the requirements on it? They presented it as a typical neoliberal bullshit policy. It was filled with so many specific requirements that almost no one would qualify for it. And it was bad economic policy too, as it would simply serve to further inflate the overheated housing bubble.
support for legalized cannabis
You cannot run on something that is one of your severe policy failures. Democrats have been running on the cannabis issue for multiple cycles at this point. They’ve all dragged their feet and slow-walked it for cheap political points.
support for trans people
She’s objectively better on this than Trump, but trying to Third Way it, she screwed herself over. Democrats were vocally supportive of trans rights before any kind of major backlash emerged, but their support was only ever skin-deep. Trans issues were largely absent from the recent DNC.
The Republicans latched onto anti-trans bigotry as one of their major campaign planks, and the Democrats responded by just trying to ignore trans people entirely. They avoided discussing trans people whenever possible, and they never came up with effective responses to Republicans’ main attack points. If you actually believe in trans rights, the correct response to the charge of “you want men in women sports!” is to say, “well trans women aren’t men, and you shouldn’t moronically assume trans women have the same athletic advantages as cis men.” If you actually believe in trans rights and equality, you would say, “the differences between men and women sports performance is almost entirely due to testosterone. Any minor differences that remain are not worth discriminating against people over.” Etc. You know, actually RESPONDING TO and REBUTTING the attacks Republicans make against trans people.
Centrist democrats showed conclusively that their support for trans people was nothing more than shallow political pandering. The Biden administration hasn’t been using all the levers of federal power to protect trans kids from their state governments.
This kind of mealy-mouthed centrism is what cost Kamala the election. She isn’t an enemy of trans people, but she’s also not a real ally. She doesn’t want to actively harm trans people, but she doesn’t have some fundamental belief in the worth of trans rights. It’s just another political football to her. It was beneficial to seem extremely pro-trans in 2020, and now that the conservatives have rallied against trans people, now she’s not so eager to defend trans people. It seems disingenuous and it made her look like someone who would say anything just to win the election.
How many of those 10-15 million watching from the sidelines would have shown up for a pro-Palestine candidate?
No one was expecting her to become a rabidly pro-Palestinian protester. No one expected her to get up at the podium and say, “actually, Hamas did nothing wrong, and the Israelis should be relocated out of Palestine.” People wanted her to make US military aid contingent on Israel meeting human rights guidelines. Israel, despite all the precision weaponry we give them, has a worse civilian:military kill ratio than Hamas. They kill more civilians for every soldier they kill than radical terrorists. Despite all their high-tech weaponry, THAT is how unconcerned Israel has been about civilian casualties. Hamas has done a better job of avoiding civilian casualties than Israel.
Anyway, the polling showed that calling for a cease-fire and other measures would have been immensely popular. This was a completely unforced error on her part. She threw away votes for nothing.
I’m not saying that she didn’t have any liberal centrist ideas like what you listed, but that doesn’t mean she was progressive either. A lot of the policy ideas that were actually good were once on the Republican platform before Reagan.
Don’t forget about how popular Bernie was in 2016 before he was forcibly removed from the democratic nomination by the party establishment or how popular Tlaib, AOC, and Omar have been. Don’t forget about how down-ballot races in this cycle, while brutal to Democrats, didn’t push out many progressives. Progressivism is far more popular than the democratic party is willing to admit or fight on, because the party is owned and controlled by the same class currently oppressing us; the billionaires. If a candidate like Bernie presents a real path, they will force the person out. It’s not strictly an issue with the Overton window.
Here’s the thing about the choice facing people in the election: it doesn’t matter anymore as a matter of the current political reality, because Harris gambled hard on the “good cop, bad cop” aspect of “he’s worse” and lost hard. That statement is 110% true, but it’s horribly ineffective as we saw in 2016 and again in this election. Islamophobia will absolutely increase, and Trump will fund the genocide until all of Palestine is settled by colonists. But once again, don’t forget about how successful Tlaib was in comparison to Harris. We no longer have the opportunity to find out if it would or wouldn’t have affected the campaign, but the indication is there that at least 1 swing state would have gone to Harris with an anti-genocide stance.
You’re only providing half of the argument. The other half of the argument is the fact that if you didn’t support her, then you supported a fascist dictatorship.
And what happened? We got a fascist dictatorship!
That’s because fascism has never and will never be beaten at the ballot box.
Let’s preface with the fact I voted for Harris, and understand where you’re coming from with lesser evil voting.
But the other half of your argument is that with the way that Harris was tacking to the right to try to gain moderate voters, the choice was between voting between fascism now and fascism later down the line.
But if we vote for fascism later then we have time to distance ourselves from fascism.
By sitting at home happy that you did your job and ‘defeated’ fascism, until the next election where your choice is again fascism now and fascism a little less later down the line?
As the Dems keep drifting further and further right. At what point do you put your foot down and demand actual progressive policies? And how do you get those demands to actually be listened to when the party knows you’ll vote for them because “at least we’re not as bad as the other guys. What choice do you have?” Supporting her is a message to the Democratic party that their strategy of slowly becoming more conservative wins elections. And this is the reason that I was very conflicted about voting for her, but just held my nose and did it for the greater good.
I think you’re wrong about how the party sees non voters. When you don’t vote, the party treats you like a non voter and moves their platform to the right to appeal to the voters. When you sit home in an election the party doesn’t go “how do we get these votes of people that only vote when the stars align perfectly”, they go, “how do we get these votes of people that always vote”. Every far left person mad about the country moving right can blame themselves just as much as the party. People who consistently participate shape the future.
Source: I’ve work for the Democratic party and have a pretty good idea how they interpret voter turnout data.
Out of curiosity, how do they interpret 3rd party left-leaning votes, particularly in swing states? Obviously those wouldn’t have decided this election, just curious since you seem to be in the know.
If I understand their outlook, first job is getting people who consistently vote for Dems to be reminded and motivated to go to the polls. 2nd is convincing consistent voters to vote for you (that includes Republicans and third party), a distant last is convincing non-voters or occasional voters. I think the problem with trying to get 3rd party voters to vote for Dems is that the type of person that votes 3rd party is very difficult to convince that you’re an ally.
They could completely realign the party platform to fit with 3rd party and non voters biggest issues and most won’t shift their vote for many reasons. Disgust for the 2 party system, distrust that the party will follow a more left wing agenda, conspiracy theories, the needs to be contrarian or protect their sense of moral purity, etc.
While I’m not sure I agree with the parties approach to disaffected voters. I do think the amount of investment needed to get those voters is possibly outweighed by the amount of voters you may lose in the process. And that sense of inherent risk is stopping the party from taking a chance. Maybe we get lucky and they no longer see an alternative, but I doubt it.
Are we, the Democratic party out of touch?
No, it’s the electorate’s fault!
15 million Democrats, progressives, and independents condoned racism are at fault.
Democratic leadership blind and dismissive of the common worker suck and are at fault.
Both can and are true at the same damn time and Democrats and progressives all over the nation fucked us all.
Wow, that is some spectacular thinking.
Honestly, if they do the same things next cycle, I’ll be more inclined to vote green.
The electorate picked the racist rapist trump, that’s what represents America.
To say that a political party should stray further from what the majority of Americans that stepped up to vote for is what is out of touch.
It represents a large portion, but progressive policies are widely popular. Even in states Trump won there were votes passed to protect abortion access and increase minimum wage.
Most people vote based on vibes, and there were no progressive or positive vibes put forward by the dems this campaign. They signaled a ‘lethal military’, tighter borders, and sought endorsements from prominent Republicans, trying to win votes that would never go to their party anyway, alienating anyone who might have believed in the genuineness of the dems as ‘progressives’.
Eh if the left are not going to bother to vote then who cares and they shouldn’t cater to them. Go more right split the vote at least those people vote. The ones who don’t don’t matter.
Nobody is arguing the DNC isn’t out of touch.
however the electorate isn’t much better. Cutting off their nose to spite their face.
Nice try on the strawman though, better than some.
What strawman? When is it appropriate to hold DNC leadership accountable for losing the election, again?
The DNC will have its come to jesus moment and maybe come to the wrong conclusions again, but it’s still patently obvious that a massive number of people will vote against their own interests regardless of the arguments anyone made.
Why would they? They’ve just shown their complete inability to pivot an iota, for THREE elections. That’s 12 years of nothing learned by the DNC, minimum.
Unless you consider that they don’t care to win. Unless they benefit from losing equally, or more as losers. Does Biden or Harris look particularly pained by this outcome, at all? They look pleased as punch.
Yeah it’s hard to vote in an informed manner with so many obstacles to education. I suspect this problem is about to get a whole lot worse unfortunately.
I am not here to argue. I will not engage beyond this post no matter what is said in response because I don’t want to fight.
What matters is policy. Real hard on the ground policy that real normal people can feel and see where they live.
When some wonk gets on MSNBC with a spreadsheet hooting about how much better things are with grocery prices or housing costs, that doesn’t mean anything to someone who’s begging for extra shifts at work so they can make rent. Those are aggregates and averages. If the 200k-500k bracket is doing better while the 13k-45k bracket isnt, the numbers still went up. That looks better in the data. But the people at the bottom are still suffering just as much as ever. They don’t feel or see any improvement because there wasn’t any. Not for them.
The health and performance of the stock market only matters to those on the bottom when it crashes and suddenly they’re paying more for everything. At no other point does it impact them in the slightest. Those record profits aren’t reinvested, they’re not used to reduce the strain on consumers. Its gobbled up by a few dozen shareholders. It benefits nobody else. And if an executive or CEO has the slightest semblance of a soul and wants to help consumers they’re voted out because the only responsibility is to those few dozen shareholders.
Healthcare. The ACA was a grand achievement. They took Romneycare national. Round of applause for all involved. But its still cheaper to do some form of Universal Healthcare. That would be the easiest win in history. And everyone would feel it immediately. It would help 100,000,000 people immediately. People who have been putting off medical treatment for half their lives because of the extortionist expense would immediately seek treatment. They would seek preventative treatment and raise the overall health across the country. Obesity rates drop, drug use plummets, etc.
Marijuana. Literally every person I know and interact with in my daily life uses it. Do you know the number one reason I’ve heard from all of them? Pain management. Again, another easy win that is supported by everyone except the ghouls who were alive when it was called “The Devil’s Lettuce” and propagandized into believing its this terrible thing.
Hard Policy that people can feel and see in their daily lives. You can still court the comfortable liberals who care about the stock market and all that. They’ll be fine no matter who is in office. If they need an abortion it’s a weekend vacay to Zurich or somewhere. But you’re never going to hold any meaningful power again without hard policy. Because for decades now the republicans have cornered the market on grievance politics and reaction. To break through that you need something real. No more vibes based nonsense. It will not work.
I am not here to argue. I will not engage beyond this post no matter what is said in response because I don’t want to fight.
tldr
edit: for the downvoters, how can I take anyone seriously if they’re not going to sit and defend their opinion.
You’re mocking someone for posting their reasoning in detail, and then getting upset when people downvote you without giving reasons. What do you want?
after this I won’t respond to you because your opinion is meaningless and doesn’t deserve my attention.
I’m mocking them because the message they introduced their opinion with is the same one above.
I’m sorry that reading long posts is hard for you. But don’t take it out on others. You can say that it was too long without the added abrasiveness.
And here, you’re telling me that my opinion is meaningless. Why do you do that? Almost everyone here has similar values and goals; and yet you’re lashing out at everyone, creating conflict and division. Isn’t that the opposite of what you want?
He’s right. He put together a well constructed argument for his position and you simply ignored all of it.
Harris ran a failed strategy of moving to the right and ‘business as usual’ when people want actual progressive policies that will address their material needs.
Neoliberalism will always move to the right and normalize fascist ideology over improving the livelyhood of the working class. Progressive policies are popular with Republican voters too, that’s the correct way to fracture the Republican base into voting Democrat.
Conceding to right-wing policies and disinformation, like on immigration, only alienates more of the Democratic base while bolstering Republican voters support for the Republican party.
Polls on campaign messaging
How to Win a Swing Voter in Seven Days
“The View” Alternate Universe: Break From Biden in Interviews, Play the Hits in Ads
Polls on policy
How Trump and Harris Voters See America’s Role in the World
Majority of Americans support progressive policies such as higher minimum wage, free college
Democrats should run on the popular progressive ideas, but not the unpopular ones
Here Are 7 ‘Left Wing’ Ideas (Almost) All Americans Can Get Behind
Finding common ground: 109 national policy proposals with bipartisan support
Progressive Policies Are Popular Policies
Tim Walz’s Progressive Policies Popular With Republicans in Swing States
I voted for Harris and told others to do so too. Doesn’t change the fact that it was her campaign strategy that was responsible for the loss of millions in voter turnout. All the evidence and polling show that running on popular progressive policies that represent a change and improve the material conditions of the American public was the right way to boost voter turnout, the fact that she instead went to the right was a calculated decision that completely failed.
At the risk of being a pedant, no reason to think that person is a man. They did articulate the argument tho, for sure. And you did too.
But the left doesn’t seem to care or are not motivated. The right has their shit together and people are voting even if they don’t agree or think everything trump has said. Where the left just seem to say oh I don’t agree with x I’m not voting. Roy vs wade is a great example they kept on pecking at it till they got it and the left bever got it into law thinking this is good enough.
If by left you mean the Democratic Party I agree. It’s important to recognize that the Democratic Party is for the most part running on the platform of neoliberalism. That’s been the case since Third Way Politics. The issue is that, while the Democratic Base is progressive, the Democratic Party is instead still centered on neoliberalism.
That’s an important distinction because neoliberalism is fundamentally at odds with progressive legislation that improves the material conditions of the American public, at the expense of capital accumulation of corporations.
There are only a small amount of progressive Democrats within the Democratic Party, which include Bernie Sanders, AOC, and the rest of The Squad. As a whole, even the Democratic Party works against progressive policy which is exactly why we’ve been seeing this disconnect between the Party and the Base.
Progressive policies and change can only be created and mobilized through grassroots movements. Republican policies, on the other hand, are entirely funded by corporate profits. That includes the entire manosphere, from think tanks like the Heritage Foundation to Fix News to individual conservative content creators like Ben Shapiro.
That’s precisely why we need to organize more. Neither of the two parties have the interest of the working class at heart. Only by creating our own organization like through groups like the DSA and Unions do we have any kind of power to demand progressive policies that will improve our livelyhood and communities
Yes, the number of people on here who claim that withholding their vote to ‘punish the DNC’ and make them learn a lesson is helpful is too high. If the Democrats were going to learn their lesson, they would have done so after 2016. Believing that by not voting, they’ll affect the Democrats’ strategy doesn’t make them leftist, it makes them another flavour of liberal, who thinks establishment electoralism is a pathway to socialism.
A much more effective solution is to organize locally, educating people on real solutions and pushing for change that way, not by blindly assuming the Democrats will reflect on their loss and run a communist candidate next time.
IMO some of that blame game is more right wing trolling to further undermine the Democratic Party.
Don’t stop kicking them when they’re down. Keep kicking.
I’ll keep kicking them because fuck extremists of any kind.
Yeah fuck all extremists, “I want all people to have healthcare and housing” vs “I want to eradicate non-white people” are the same
Yeah, fuck extremists that are willing to gamble the future of 125 to 200 million Americans because they “want to win”.
The road to fascism is paved with the best of intentions.
There was no way for these sham elections to be a ‘win’ for anyone but fascists and corporations. I am just impressed so many people believe that leftists actually had enough sway to tank Kamala’s campaign.
How do you know Kamala’s winning would even be better for vulnerable people? Roe v Wade was nullified under the administration she was a key part of. On trans rights she said she would ‘follow the law’. We would have the most ‘lethal military’ and a stronger border. They have sent billions in defiance of international law to support groups committing genocide.
And how many people voted for Kamala in her primary to earn the nomination? To protect democracy from Trump apparently we had to forego democracy.
How do you cope with the duality that you’re trying to force-feed me? She’s both the most inept, lying politician, and yet so intelligent and cunning that she caused us to lose Roe v. Wade.
She and she alone is responsible for all of the horrible things that the Republicans have forced upon us.
She caused the nullification of Roe v. Wade. She personally stripped away the rights of LGBTQ+ Americans. She personally went to Israel and started the war against Palestine. She has physically murdered hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, literally. She raped your grandmother and kicked your dog.
Did I miss anything?
To protect democracy from Trump apparently we had to forego democracy.
What kind of fuckin backwards ass double speak is this bullshit?
You clearly aren’t even coherent enough to understand the ramifications of your actions. Go take a nap or something.
Why are y’all so scared of blaming the people in power who failed reaching voters?
why are y’all scared of taking responsibility for allowing a Nazi to gain power when you decided to not vote?
the DNC is out of touch with voters.
that doesn’t absolve the electorate from failing to rally behind a candidate that was the best choice to stop a NAZI REGIME from taking power.
if you didn’t vote, or voted 3rd party, you’re no better than magats.
The blame falls on people in power not delivering for the working class/poor. There is no better ally for the GOP than modern spineless Dems who center their politics around them. Every third party voter could have voted for Harris and she still would have lost.
The blame falls on people in power not delivering for the working class/poor.
No, I’m pretty sure it was the people who refused to vote. All 20 million of them failed to identify the obvious threat to our democracy and react accordingly.
There is no better ally for the GOP than modern spineless Dems who center their politics around them.
Spoken like a true extremist. Now, the sad thing is, I never considered myself a Democrat. I was something of a hybrid between leftist and Democrat. After this election though, I’m neither. Now I’m an anti-extremist, extremist. And I know I’m not the only one.
Every third party voter could have voted for Harris and she still would have lost.
We all know that’s a lie. 20 million votes to Harris would have swung it greatly in her favor.
But that’s fine. You keep lying, and I’ll keep hating extremists.
Cope all you want. But she chooses to court Republicans and chase the ghosts of Cheney Era Voters and paid for it. When Trump can postion himself as to speaking to working class issues than a Dem. That is fine.
" hybrid between leftist and Democrat" Yeah a centrists no need to rebrand it.
Greatest campaign strategy known to man. Do nothing, shit talk your base, be surprised when you lose. Classic DNC.
You seem to have confused me for somebody who gives a fuck about the DNC.
I couldn’t give a fucking rat ass about the DNC, the RNC, Independents, Green Party, Tea Party.
I only care that there are Nazis taking over the United States of America in January. I care that 125 to 200 million Americans will pay the price for the negligence of 20 million Americans.
I don’t judge you based off of what your political leaning is.
I judge you based on if you are a fascist supporting boot licking Nazi loving piece of shit.
If you didn’t vote this election cycle, you’re as good as a fucking Nazi to me. If you voted third party, you’re as good as a fucking Nazi to me. If you voted Republican, you are a fucking Nazi to me.
Please, by all means, vote however you want. Vote your conscience. But I’ll still think you’re a Nazi if you didn’t vote for Harris.
Not because you are a Nazi, but because you didn’t actually try to stop the Nazis.
I don’t understand the “we were to small to matter” argument I’ve been seeing. If that’s true, why on Earth would you expect to matter enough to move the Democratic platform, or to shape society after leftists “burn it all down” (whatever that means)?
The argument is based on third party people who voted. They aren’t including the group of likely voters who didnt, mainly because thats not easy to calculate.
They can see how many registered democrats vs have voted but I’m not sure about the other parties, if people register for them the same way.
I did what I had to do, which is vote.
The campaign’s job was to get other people to vote. They failed at their job.
and voters failed at their job. they failed to recognize trump as a fascist and a direct threat to the continuation of our Republic.
How’s that tactic of browbeating and blaming voters working out for ya?
Makes me feel better.
I guess we’ve got, what, the next 80 years to blame each other until the Nazis kill us all?
Why doesn’t the DNC have any responsibility in your point of view?
Blaming the voters is insane. The DNC doesn’t learn from their mistakes and keeps putting up awful candidates that are only there because they will maintain the status quo.
We want progress, not the same shitty economy and no healthcare and no response to climate change.
Blaming the voters is insane.
- 'Murka after electing Hitler in diapers
the DNC is to blame as well.
they gave us their choice. it sucked, but it was better than Trump.
but that wasn’t good enough for you, was it?
now look what we’re fucking stuck with.
No it wasn’t good enough.
Harris offers essentially the same platform as Trump.
I know that’s going to upset y’all, but she wants the same things but with a different aesthetic.
Looking at her immigration policy tells you most of what you need to know about her. Look at her stance on the genocide. Look at her stance on the environment and fracking. It’s all the same as Trump.
So yeah, you’re goddamn right it’s not good enough.
Harris offers essentially the same platform as Trump.
Great campaign strategy buddy. Why don’t you work as an analyst?
Cool. Nazis taking over America and your memeing a womp womp in response to criticism of your dumbass analysis that has failed twice now. Real big brains you’re working with over there.
Brother I get your mad about the election but your crashing out on a Lemmy comment chain about it.
You go girl! Blame them dumbass voters and learn absolutely nothing from this.
Are you at least aware enough to understand why they refer to guys like yourself as blue MAGA?
why are y’all scared of taking responsibility for allowing a Nazi to gain power when you decided to not vote
I voted for Kamala but I still blame the DNC
the issue is two fold
a) they played games with democracy, further accelerating the erosion of whatever little faith remains in our democracy institutions. there should have been a primary, not the underhanded switcharoo we got to witness where for the first time in US history since primaries were a thing… we had a presidential candidate nominated without a single vote
b) while voters are struggling and going through a period of profound insecurity - not only financially but in a very real social sense - they offer more of the same. neoliberal status quo. people are desperate for change and the DNC offers them nothing.
you blame the voters but you do not want to put an ounce of blame on the party that would rather lose an election than offer meaningful change
and installing a Nazi regime that has, on record, stated they will never let go of control is the best answer y’all could come up with?
how is any of that going to make the struggle BETTER?
will unbridled fascism help calm the masses and stabilize the inequalities of the previous democracy?
will it restore and protect the rights of Americans?
you blame the voters but you do not want to put an ounce of blame on the party that would rather lose an election than offer meaningful change
I blame the DNC of being inept! I never fucking said they weren’t!
I can still blame the electorate for allowing a fascist dictatorship to take hold in American government.
Just because you call out a fault doesn’t absolve the other party, both are at fault here. I’m just disappointed that voters ignored all reason and decided to fuck all of us(including themselves), to spite us.
btw, what kind of “meaningful change” can we expect now that sweet potato Hitler is in power?
So the democrat deciding to run as the corporatist party again is the voters fault?
Even running an unpopular campaign that was guaranteed to continue genocide and corporate profiteering, they lost to Trump with all his baggage.
Maybe people care a lot less who a person is than what problems they say they will fix.
I’d suggest you move to a blue state if you are really concerned, and I’ll see you in four years for the next election.
Voting for a Nazi won’t make things better, but when people are desperate they want change, any change. Weimar Germany was democratic, Hitler and the Nazi party legitimately won the popular vote.
you blame the voters but you do not want to put an ounce of blame on the party that would rather lose an election than offer meaningful change
Uh…
the DNC is out of touch with voters.
What is this, if not shared blame?
i guess the implication is that he puts more blame on the voters, as that is what his comments are mainly focused on.
me personally I don’t blame the voters at all. just like I don’t blame the German public for voting in the Nazis.
humans are stupid herd animals who will elect strongmen when they feel weak and scared.
i believe you can only put blame on people that have autonomy. and the only people with any real autonomy in this country are the elites, which have stuck their fingers in their ears and their heads in the sand for far too long.
the pressure pot is cooking and I think it’s too late to stop it. maybe if we were a little less greedy over the last few decades and a little less focused on the short term, we could have skipped this resurgence of fascism that we’re about to live through
but politicians only care about the next election and corporations only care about the next quarter. we are a short term society and have sacrificed the long term health of our country
Interesting. That’s an angle I’ll have to consider. It seems like democracy with fixed terms and term limits has a similar problem to capitalism: myopia.
Angry man is better than others because he did the right thing.
Good job angry man.
It is the political party’s responsibility to put up a candidate worth voting for. We do not owe political parties mindless allegiance. You’ve got it backwards.
The government is supposed to work for us, not the other way around.
Harris was always a bad candidate and she had a terrible platform.
Anti universal healthcare, pro genocide, pro fracking. She literally got into a pissing contest during the debate against Trump where she was insisting that she was more pro Israel and more pro fracking than Trump.
The DNC has to put up decent candidates. They have to earn our votes. They are not entitled to them.
Should the DNC have put forward a candidate that was fairly selected with grass roots support among the wider voting population?
No, it’s the voters who are at fault.
do you think there was enough time?
use your fucking brain.
Americans that purposely withheld votes cause this to happen. point. fucking. blank.
when it actually mattered 20 million Americans abandoned their posts to protect democracy. full stop.
when a house is on fire, do you save the stuff or the people first?
Nevermind, you just want to blame the fire dept from not showing up faster.
do you think there was enough time?
Yes. Other countries manage just fine.
Americans that purposely withheld votes cause this to happen. point. fucking. blank.
Maybe they didn’t purposely withhold votes. Maybe they were just not enthusiastic enough about the DNC candidate.
20 million Americans abandoned their posts to protect democracy
This is not democracy. It’s a corporatocracy that’s one candidate away from dictatorship.
when a house is on fire, do you save the stuff or the people first
The house is on fire because the two greedy landlords have refused to do basic maintenance and listen to the concerns of their tenants.
You just don’t get it. You still want to argue about why the house is on fire, instead of trying to save the people in the house.
That’s the problem with ideological extremists. You just can’t admit that your idea sucks.
I’ll admit that the Democrats suck.
Can you admit that your socialist goals were unachievable in the previous political environment?
Wait a second. 🤔 Was that your goal all along?
No, if that was the case, you would be no better than the Nazis.
right?
Holy shit.
You could not be more incorrect on more levels if you tried.
How exactly was Harris trying to put out this fire again? By welcoming the war criminal Dick Cheney into the party with open arms? By arguing with Trump that she’s more pro fracking and pro genocide than he is?
Harris’s platform offered zero solutions to anything. Her entire thing was “brat vibes” and also I support the corporate powers that be even harder than Trump does. She was literally offering a harder border policy than TRUMP.
I’m not exactly sure what you think she was saving us from.
If the house wasn’t on fire we wouldn’t need to save the people. Your strategy will never save the people in the house. Neither landlord cares about the people, only the companies providing services.
again, you’re trying argue about if or how the house is on fire.
it was on fire!
now it’s burned the-fuck down. People, things, everything has burned.
it’s too late.
I blame both groups. Both groups are known to be stubborn to the point of short sightedness. Lemmy has a lot of blaming of both at the moment and it’s fair
So if after his term ends Trump doesn’t remain in power, will you just shoot yourself? Or how do you plan to prevent people from having to listen to your half-assed doomer opinions?
Yeah, he’s a fucking idiot and he never should’ve won. Says a lot about the democratic party that they got beaten by a fucking idiot.
Maybe in the future own your mistakes instead of fearmongering, idk, just a thought.
Or, it says a lot about the intentions of each and every person that either voted for him, or didn’t vote.
“It’s Alice’s fault for not reminding Bob to pay the heating bill”. And I do mean reminding - as in an extremely obvious thing.
Isn’t it more like Alice’s fault for making Bob choose between paying the heating bill and the water bill, especially when someone from Alice’s department wanted to implement free heating and water for all consumers, Bob fucking included? Is it that hard to see how the corruption in Alice’s place of work is so goddamn disgusting that even Alice fans aren’t coming out to support her?
Jesus fucking christ. Never own up to your mistakes. Never admit your candidate was weak. Never admit your candidate is tied to corporate interests just as much as the other dumb fuck who won. Nooo, you have to seem squeaky clean. And then you wonder why people who see through that shit can’t be bothered to go vote.
Have some ownership and implement some reforms to turn your corporate-tied party around or die crying. Y’all keep wondering why voters see two shades of brown, and they don’t hurry to choose to eat shit from you instead of the other asshole.
“I can’t just run on not being the other guy? I actually have to articulate a platform and get people to like me???”
Add the /s
Oh we’re not even waiting until 2028 to start up the infighting again. How fun. At least we’ll have something to discuss while in line for the showers.
Let me ask you, did voting for Biden actually help?
yes!
One of the reasons Kamala failed was that her central message was crippled from the start. Her main campaign plank was that Trump was a threat to democracy. The problem with this was that Biden didn’t treat him like a threat to democracy.
Trump should have been arrested on day one of Biden’s term. He should have been rapidly tried in a military tribunal, had the book thrown at him, and quickly been convicted. And SCOTUS justices that dared to try to intervene should have been charged as accomplices tried with similar swiftness.
Biden didn’t do that. He appointed a Republican to lead the DOJ. That Republican then sat on his ass for two years, then began a slow investigation, only for Trump to eventually run out the clock.
Biden did not treat Trump like a threat to democracy. Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus the last time there was a similarly-scaled threat to democracy. Lincoln ruled like a dictator during the Civil War. He had pro-Southern newspapers, in the North, censored and shut down. He actually showed what you need to do to a true threat to democracy.
True threats to democracy require bold and sometimes quite draconian response. It’s an emergency, democracy is on the line, and drastic action is required.
If you DON’T act with that kind of haste, you show that you don’t actually feel democracy is being threatened that much. Biden proved that he really didn’t believe his own rhetoric. Biden in his heart really doesn’t believe that Trump is a threat to democracy, as he certainly didn’t act like he thought he is.
This is why Kamala’s central campaign message fell flat on his face. There is ZERO reason an incumbent should ever be able to run on a platform of “my opponent tried to steal the last election.” If you’re the incumbent, it was YOUR responsibility to protect the republic from threats against it. If your opponent is truly a threat to the republic, why weren’t they locked up or sent to the gallows a long time ago?
That was the central problem of Kamala’s core message. If someone tries to violently overthrow the government, you are supposed to send the military after them and turn them into a fine mist or turn the justice department on them and see them hanged for treason. You’re not supposed to just let them off the hook and then bitch to the electorate that they’re dangerous and can’t be trusted. And if someone is a true threat to the republic, you shouldn’t even let the Supreme Court get in your way.
Finally, someone who understands the historical lens. Thank you
So fascism has been defeated?
It had been stalled. If we were able to stall long enough for Trump to kick the bucket, I would have called that a win
It hasn’t been stalled considering it got an even bigger win this time. It grew! That’s even worst. But stalled isn’t good either. Destroyed is what you’re looking foryou ain’t going to get it from the makers of the material conditions that enable fascism to arise.
I want you to read this, and I want you to really understand.
I want you to think about this for at least the next week.
Because when you understand this, you will realize so much that you have ignored.
Fascism is simply an ideology.
How do you kill an idea? You kill the people who share the idea.
This next question is incredibly important.
So how do you propose we kill fascism? An idea that is known and shared with over seven billion people.
How would you stop it?
Killing a people isn’t killing an ideology. That said, as far as I’m concerned these animals (trump supporters) aren’t even human, let alone entitled to rights. The only reason I’d ever advocate for their best interest is when it’s in the best interest of actual people caught up in their horrid little towns and villages (it’s me, I’m caught up in one of these horrid little places. It’s bad.)
When people do not feel safety and security, they will first reach for scapegoats. When that doesn’t work, they will reach for a gun.
There are a lot of people hurting in this country, obviously a whole lot more than I thought. So the people have found their scapegoats this cycle, now we wait and see if it satisfies them.
I meant more that it had been stalled in 2020
Yes that’s what I said. It hasn’t been stalled in 2020, it got worse since.
It didn’t grow though. Trump got fewer votes this time than he did in 2020.
It was stalled, but then Biden and the rest of the Democrats squandered that opportunity to actually solve the problem. Instead, they delusionally chained themselves to behavioral norms that were dead and gone and kept trying to prop up the neoliberal status quo, while doing pretty much nothing effective to fix the working class’ problems (i.e. the disaffection that led to the fascist demagogue’s success in the first place).
I guess it’s gonna have to get worse before it gets better
Careful now, you’ll get downvotes in this thread if you don’t focus exclusively on blaming the voters for it getting worse. Admitting that it might get better afterwards is like admitting that the Democrats might be somewhat responsibile for their electoral failures.
Wow real time moving the goalposts!
There is no moving the goal post, I asked a simple question, since the premise was the same in 2020, “vote Biden to defeat the rise of fascism”, I’m asking how effective that was. Did it work? Was the rise of fascism stopped? Altered? Slowed down?
Yes? It was slowed down by a full presidential term
That’s not really anything to brag about when we are now in worse shape than before.
Hey, the Earth won’t last forever. Eventually all life will end. So maybe we should just let it all end asap. Keeping it going is nothing to brag about since we’ll lose in the end anyway. Is that right?
Or maybe we should make the best of the time we have. Maybe we should push back against fascism and corruption and destruction, even if our victories don’t last forever. What do you think? Is it worth defeating a fascist leader once even if fascism can still eventually return, or is it all just a waste of effort and we should just roll over and die?
so when did you realize you were a fascist supporting piece of shit?
they mad because they can’t troll against simple one word responses.
them when they read “yes”
do you honestly think that a political system can be defeated?
you suck at logical fallacies btw.
try harder.
I think it was both playing chicken against each other. Dem leadership refused to listen to “progressives”, I E.: things that most Americans wanted, and the voters refused to vote until the Dems listened to them.
So they crashed into each other and now the country is going to burn down.
If these last 10 years have taught me anything, it’s that most Americans are not progressives.
That’s kind of a difficult thing to determine, when asked almost no one says they are, but if asked about policies, they tend to go for more progressive policies, even people that identify as conservatives will agree with more progressive policies. The people they vote for however, are definitely not progressive… Mostly, there are a few.
Then again, progressive in America is pretty much basic human rights and protecting vulnerable people which should be the minimum.
Exactly this. American’s don’t care about progress, they care about the economy. Clinton was right, “it’s the economy stupid”.
American politicians are not progressive. America has not had a true progressive in decades. Today’s democrat policy has been overwhelmingly stagnant. Status quo plus a tiny tax cut for the working class.
The millions of Democrats who didn’t vote shows a rapidly growing apathy towards the party and their inaction
They had Bernie, but they backstabbed him in two primaries, to please the corporate donors. And maybe there’s the squad, at least two of them are still around.
They don’t identify that way but most Americans are in favor of progressive policies when asked
Evidence might suggest otherwise
The best example is the minimum wage increase in Missouri that recently got put into law. Sinema killed the federal bill a few years ago but somehow deep, red state Americans are not progressive? People love progressive policies, they just don’t like the words associated with it.
Removed by mod
Yeah its fucking both, duh.
Way more than two options here.
I voted for Harris, and I encouraged others to as well. And I think the Democratic leadership royally fucked up here.
The polls kinda sucked in the end, and I think one reason is that folks were embarrassed to admit they were voting for Trump. That to me says that they voted for him not because he’s a racist sexist pig, but in spite of this.
But the polls did afaik get that the economy was hugely important. And the Democrats failed here both in current policy (groceries got more expensive over the course of Biden’s term), and in proposed policy messaging. No one cares about home buyer credits if you can’t afford groceries. (And no, I don’t think Trump has a plan to lower prices aside from shady back room deals that will ultimately cost us big — but voters want something new…)
To be clear, I voted for Biden, I voted for Harris, and I’m pretty scared about the future. But the Democrats need to learn something from this or it’s same story in four years. Maybe the lesson is “we can’t count on the left in this country to vote for us by default,” and maybe the lesson is, “for the love of God raise hell if the cost of living goes up, and do it in a way that appeals to the lowest common denominator.”
The DNC has run the exact same playbook for 3 elections in a row. If you still think they’re coming to save us, you have more processing yet to do.
Harris was literally campaigning with the Cheney and Clinton families. She made herself the center of a Venn diagram of two of the most politically reviled characters in modern American history. A politically savvy leadership doesn’t make a shit sandwich and then expect people to want to take a bite.
I agree, the Democrats should learn something. Unfortunately, they won’t be able to do anything about it again considering Trump won’t never leave office as long as he lives.
They’re screwed either way the Supreme Court is going to be so stacked on the republican side. They well control everything even if the dems have a president in.
If those 20 million voters actually voted I have the distinct feeling that we would have had a very weak, but still there, blue wave.
But we’ll never know now.
I keep hearing about grocery prices, but no one has any explanation of what Biden was supposed to do about it that he wasn’t already doing, or how Trump will handle it better.
If putting a Republican administration in place that will bend over for corporations causes lower grocery prices, doesn’t that just prove that corporate greed was the main driver all along? Why can’t people who voted Trump for these reasons understand that?
If voters keep voting like this, corporations are just going to purposely raise prices whenever someone they don’t like is in power, and the sheep will just fall for it and we’ll never be able to hold these corporations accountable.
I keep hearing about grocery prices, but no one has any explanation of what Biden was supposed to do about it that he wasn’t already doing, or how Trump will handle it better.
Completely agree. I think it’s a “you break it you buy it” situation with voters.
And it’s not based in reason — Biden’s administration was staring down the barrel of a recession, and yet here we are, having completely avoided it. That’s a pretty successful navigation of the economic hand that Biden was dealt, if you ask me. But at the end of the “day groceries more expensive” = “we need someone else in the white house” for a lot of voters, I guess.
I was a naysayer in 2020, I thought the DNC was repeating the mistakes of 2016 by putting up a moderate but I was wrong.
I was practically giddy when I heard that the FTC was finally going after these corporations.
I was thinking that there’s no way they can blame the Dems for what happens in the next two years, but I’m guessing the post-reality anti-facts crew will find a way.
they were wrong in 2020. there is a reason biden ‘promised to be a single term president’ initially and then immediately retracted once he won.
The problem wasnt biden’s economic policies during his term. its that he (and harris) demonstrated an profound lack of understanding of the daily experience of working americans. those 20 million people are likely individuals who have mentally checked out from politics because its not worth their time anymore due to the parties being essentially identical economically. As I’m going to do outside of my local elections going forward. its just not worth it anymore to try and support the dems.
Yes you should have voted for Kamala and yes it’s the Democrats at fault. Both are true.
If you voted it’s the Democrats fault. If you didn’t vote it’s your fault.
And the DNCs fault.
