Some of the top browser makers around have issued a letter to the European Commission (EC) alleging that Microsoft gives the Edge browser an unfair advantage and should be subject to EU tech rules.
A letter seen by Reuters, sent by Vivaldi, Waterfox, and Wavebox, and supported by a group of web developers, also supports Opera’s move to take the EC to court over its decision to exclude Microsoft Edge from being subject to the Digital Markets Act (DMA).
As Edge comes pre-installed by default on Windows machines, users must navigate the Microsoft offering in order to download their browser of choice. The letter states that, “No platform independent browser can aspire to match Edge’s unparalleled distribution advantage on Windows. Edge is, moreover, the most important gateway for consumers to download an independent browser on Windows PCs.”
It’s like the mid 90s all over again. Let’s see if anything happens this time.
I want that Web to die, die, die.
Gemini is a step in the right direction, but the new Web should be both non-extensible by design and transparently allow distributed storage, distributed untrusted computation, and separation of the concepts of a site and a machine that serves it. In other words, serverless, where websites and services and even web applications are identified cryptographically, and anybody can contribute their computing power (or storage) to a site\service\application, out of desire to help or for money. With smart contracts, ghost keys and other buzzwords I have no real idea about.
And fuck Microsoft.
I guess it could be said that Edge has an unfair…edge?
Take your upvote and gtfo. Lol
It was an edgy comment.
Yikes, all these browser-based puns are a bit much for this little internet explorer. I’m out.
I think youre just going to have to Brave through it.
Netscape.
Please submit a second copy of that letter, but replace Windows with Android, PC with Mobile, Microsoft with Google, and Edge with Chrome.
Please submit a third copy of that letter, but replace Windows with iOS, PC with iPhone, Microsoft with Apple, and Edge with Safari.
I mean that already happened
Don’t you tell me what I am isn’t
Can you raise both your arms above your head? Do you smell burnt toast?
🔥🍞
A letter seen by Reuters, sent by Vivaldi, Waterfox, and Wavebox, and supported by a group of web developers, also supports Opera’s move to take the EC to court over its decision to exclude Microsoft Edge from being subject to the Digital Markets Act (DMA).
OK…
Shouldn’t they be fighting Chrome, more than anything? Surely there’s a legal avenue for that, though I guess there’s a risk of getting deprioritized by Google and basically disappearing.
They’re suing because Microsoft got an exclusion from the Digital Markets Act. Google did not.
Suing? It’s just a letter
Yeah they can’t fight Chrome, they are Chrome.
I mean I really don’t think it’s that big of deal. Edge only makes up 5% of market share, so it’s obviously not helping them that much.
That’s not the problematic metric though. It’s the 70-80% (link) install base of the Windows OS on desktop computers that Edge is installed with that’s the basis of the anti-competitive allegation.
The fact that it still only takes 5% of the browser usage is more of a happy accident.
That makes sense but also they clearly need any edge they can get. Maybe they should even make it more difficult to install other browsers. Like artificially lowering the search results of other browsers. Maybe they could get 6% market share that way.
Yup. Teams ignores default browser and opens URLs in Edge. I have to right click copy and open in Firefox. I refuse to be forced to use Edge
This isn’t exactly true. It just has its own override. If you go into Settings and go to the ‘Files and Links’ section, then ‘Links open preference’ you can toggle it from Edge to Default Browser.
Good to know. Thanks. Still a shady thing to do. Why have it ignore the global setting?
Teams is built on Edge webview. It’s Microsoft’s lighter-weight version of Electron.
That’s why I called it an override. There are only two options in the drop down. Edge and Default Browser. They built an option to override the system default. MS will do everything they can think of to get you onto Edge.
There’s a setting Teams, under “Files and Links” where you can change it from Edge to Default Browser. Scummy that it works that way, but you can work around it at least (for now anyway).
Not to forget than when using bing, if you look for words like Firefox or Chrome, you get a large banner saying to use Edge instead. Super shady stuff
Is this blocked by ublock origin coz I’ve never gotten that at all on Firefox.
This doesn’t make that behavior any less scummy, but have you tried using any Google website on a browser that isn’t chrome?
Not to mention that Microsoft forces you to use a Microsoft account when you create your account on your home computer which is then automatically logged in to edge and *bing so that they can track and quantize more of every single thing you do on the internet to monetize you
No it doesn’t. I just reinstalled Windows 11 pro and I’m running without a Microsoft account.
Edit: I was unfamiliar with how different that is from the home experience. I’m still using Windows 7 keys to install Windows 11 so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ consider me out of the loop.
Oh yeah?
Open edge and search for something. Check in the top right corner and tell me you’re not signed into some sort of pseudo-created Microsoft account.
You win.
Home versions, which most home users have, force the use of MS accounts. They’ve patched the bypass tricks that people used before.
Ah. Did not realize this was an issue with home. I can not say I experienced that. Hell, I still use Windows 7 pro keys to activate Windows 11.
Do you know if you could use audit mode to bypass OOBE and get around it? Simply curious.
I do a workaround when installing/setting up Windows on others PCs. Use my dummy MS account -> create local user -> change to admin -> delete out the MS account. Boom, then only the local account is on the PC.
I’m willing to bet you’re still ending up in their database. Unless you are using some sort of VPN to first obfuscate your location and then a brand new account that has not been used before, then there’s going to be some record of similarity.
When I’m installing Windows 10 or 11, I use the Rufus installer to create a pre-built admin account that I can sign in with.
That’s a good point, and a good idea about modifying the installer. I will give this a shot next time I have to do a reinstall. Thanks!
Well, it is impossible to install W11 Pro without MS account for normal person. Sure tech people can do it after couple seconds of web search, but your average PC user? Nope. No way.
Windows is absolutely abusing their position as the dominant OS to push their other products. The number of “no don’t do that” messages and pop ups when trying to install chrome on a windows computer is clearly anti-competitive, and the only reason microsoft has been getting away with it is because Edge/etc hasn’t achieved enough market share.
deleted by creator
Long last effect from us nerds telling everyone to stop using IE, because Google wasn’t a hotplate covered in wet shit at the time.
I thought we’ve already been through this before?
I vaguely remember getting the option which browser to use during an install before.
Feels like they need to stop nitpicking about this stuff. I barely know anyone that even uses Edge, it’s almost like it just functions as a downloader for Chrome or anything else.
At what point are they gonna stop? Until Windows comes without any browsers at all? And we’ll have to store copies of installers on USBs And postmail Google if we want a copy of Chrome.exe because we accidentally deleted it?
That was a Windows 7 thing - it used to be hosted at https://browserchoice.eu but that’s long gone now.
I could’ve sworn I’ve seen something like this in a W10 or W11 installation not even that long ago though.
It’s not something I imagine EU would just forget about whenever a new OS dropped.
As Edge comes pre-installed by default on Windows machines, users must navigate the Microsoft offering in order to download their browser of choice.
What’s the actual alternative they want here? That users look up download URLs on other devices and download their browser of choice via command line using
cURLInvoke-WebRequest? That ISPs provide browser installers on USB sticks?Also, it’s not like MS is cornering the market on browser share here. Even with this “unfair advantage” they’ve only scraped together a 5% slice of browser usage.
Require Microsoft to distribute competing browsers in the Microsoft store.
I can install Firefox, Chromium etc. from my distro’s package manager. I don’t open a web browser to install software. You still do that on Windows because Microsoft has a financial incentive to keep competitors out of their store, so their store sucks.
You can install Firefox from Windows’s package manager Winget with the command:
winget install -e --id Mozilla.FirefoxYou don’t have to use the Store or Edge.
And how many people in the world will use that? eight?
Exactly this. The point is not that there is no way to do it, the point is that the alternatives are obscure to limit adoption. It’s a dark pattern.
This winget thing is worse than just using edge to download an alternative. The problem is not that people are forced to interact with a browser they dont like, it’s all the people who don’t know enough to understand that there are alternatives, and those people will never use winget.
This is an already solved problem - EU did it in the past.
Basically either offer users a dialog box asking which browser they’d like to use or offer the browsers in the Microsoft Store.
And stop telling me that “The Internet is better using Edge”, Microsoft.
You can get Firefox and Opera on the Windows Store. Ostensibly, this is how every other OS works now, although on Linux it’s usually less of a storefront with Candy Crush pushed up front, and more like a commandline entry to get apps by known name.
I think people are just used to the Windows colloquialism of not having a central store, thus getting every app on the web through an installer file - and then, through meaningful distrust and horrific memories of Windows 8, choosing not to use that store when it was added.
I’d settle for them being force to offer links to alternatives when you first install Windows.
AND being forced to stop the bullshit every few updates where they force you through choosing options. One of which is “update to recommended browser settings for security?”… Which just defaults the system to use edge.
IMO edge coming pre-installed isn’t a big deal. But I’d like to be able to uninstall edge and not have Windows periodically try to trick me into setting edge as my default browser again.
Invoke-WebRequest
To comply with the court decision, Microsoft have added a super easy to use PowerShell command to install your favourite browser!
ps> Get-Browser-That-Isnt-Microsoft-Edge -Q -Browser Firefox -NumberOfNags 0 -RevertAfterUpdate False -When Now -Why BecauseTheCourtsToldUsWeNeededTowinget install -e --id Mozilla.Firefox --accept-package-agreementsalready works prefectly.Yes, i’m just making fun of the verbose nature of PowerShell commands.
For a while when you installed Windows, the first time user setup gave you a choice of popular browsers and it handled the download and install.
Now Microsoft is actively trying to sabotage other browsers with popups and office apps bypassing the default browser setting.
I agree with you completely on their over-pushiness. They could do without that.
But the first time choice thing doesn’t sound tenable long-term to me.
Welcome to SuperOS! What would you like to use as your web browser? E-mail reader? Calendar app? PDF viewer? Image viewer? File explorer? Porn viewer? Weather app? VPN?
I can think of distros/OSes that, depending on the use case, people really appreciate having something pre-installed for them. And yes, other times people would prefer their own. But imagine amateur users making a pick from that constant stream of questions, not to mention having weird incompatibilities if they make bad choices.
When was that?
They were forced to as the result of an antitrust settlement in 2009, and then the “remedy” expired 5 years later and they ripped it out
https://www.pcworld.com/article/430914/microsoft-kills-eu-browser-choice-screen.html
Oh man, I had no idea this was a thing!
why go after microsoft.
Go after fucking google.
Chromium is the plague, not Edge.
Isn’t Edge also chromium?
Yes, and its a nasty story thats all unofficial cause no one is ever gonna go on the record, at least not for another 10-20 years when it comes out in someones book…
but the short of it is, Edge had its own browser engine, but google kept making changes to youtube and other google sites that broke Edges performance and made it run like dogshit, while leaving chromium based browsers alone.
after many instances of sabotage > microsoft workaround > google sabotage> microsoft workaround. Microsoft finally gave up and remade Edge as a chromium based browser.
So Google establishing a now industry standard of evergreen versioning so that they could iterate relatively quickly on features, rather than have to maintain compatibility with years old versions, and iterating quickly on their own major websites - is a bad thing?
Right.
Yeah, let’s go back to having to maintain terrible legacy browsers that behaved completely differently for the rest of time.
ah yes, the google white knights. here to completely misconstrue the argument to make everyone but google the bad guy.
because thats what a trillion dollar company that threatens to seize control of the internet needs.
Rofl. So let’s white wash the browser history before chrome, then. Back when IE reigned supreme. You must either be too young or not in the industry to champion that.
Dude. Seriously. Genuinely.
Are you on drugs?
Or are you the victim of a mental derangement?
Because we need an explanation for this complete divorce from reality you seem to be suffering from.
On “features” they would like to see. Most of the time features that make it difficult to block tracking and keep their advertising business going. The web is all about communication standards between different programs and this includes the joint adoption of new standards and respect for the existing standards.
And Google established a lot of the standards that were both open and long living.
Yeah, Google has strayed far from the “Do no evil” philosophy in the last decade. But this rewriting of history to praise IE and demonfy Chrome from that era is ridiculous.
This is about EdgeHTML not IE
Because we should wipe away 2 decades of history and pretend the next thing is flawless on release?
Edge came in with a freight train of baggage, and didn’t make it. It’s absurd to frame this otherwise.
It’s possible to go after both. M$ has some fucked up practices that trick the user into using edge that shouldn’t be okay
I went to the widgets pane on my w11 laptop once, clicked an article and to my horror, all of my data had been synced from chrome to edge, including passwords, history, open tabs, extensions, pretty much everything.
I even went as far as to report it to the ACCC (the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) since I’ve never seen it from other browsers, and that I found it pervy the fact they did it without consent, although I doubt the ACCC would be enough to change this shitty practice, and others like it.
They’re not even trying to trick the user anymore, they’re forcing them.
You have to opt into that behavior. It prompts you on first launch
It’s possible to. Are they? Correct me if I’m wrong, but they’re not. They’re going after Microsoft and not Google.
Not that it makes any difference since Edge is just reskinned Chrome now anyway. If it was still it’s own thing I’d be rooting for Microsoft, at least up until they start to become bigger, then I’d turn on them.
One might even say it has an… Edge
so does Microsoft Windows
👍👍
